To think that 'eat less move more', everything in moderation and CICO is total bollox?

[Honestopinion23]

CICO stands for calories in vs calories out by the way.
I often read the weight loss section on here. Every day there are people embarking on any number of diets and body overhauls and I reckon about 95% of them are unsuccessful. Calorie counting, shake diets, you name it, people always gain the weight back before long. Even celebrities who seem to have done well with weight loss eventually gain it back, e.g. Pauline Quirke. I am watching that new amazon show with Melissa McCarthy and she is also back to being around the same size she was before starting her weight loss. Lisa Riley is another one who lost a lot of weight and most of it is back now. Clearly it's not working and people are making money out of telling fat people that they can be thin if only they want it bad enough or try hard enough. The scientific research shows that once you are morbidly obese, you have an absolutely miniscule chance of getting to and maintaining a normal BMI without surgery. Yes, there will no doubt be people popping up here saying they did just that but you are the exception.

The idea that if you just eat less than you burn is also flawed when a) your body adapts to lower amounts. For instance, those who have gastric bypass and eat v low calories forever still tend to be overweight/mildly obese because their bodies just can't get to a low BMI and b) you're fighting against intense hunger urges that someone who has always been normal weight just can't imagine dealing with.

If I was morbidly obese, I would ditch all the dieting crap, admit that I couldn't fix it and have surgery. I see so many dieting plans just blame the dieter for 'failure' when they're trying to do something impossible. If I was stage 1 obese or overweight, I'd go low carb no-processed for life because I think that is the only thing that switches off the hunger signals in the brain.

[quote ManifestingJoy]@Lemons1571 what an amazing achievement btw. Which meal replacement did you use? Is it possible to get a low carb meal replacement?[/quote]
I dont know how much carb (or not) slimfast has in it. I did find that cutting out most carbs caused constipation, particularly as I reached the lower weights. So I have to take a mild laxative otherwise it all seems to slow down and get bunged up in there, no matter how much water I drink. Which is a pain in the arse (no pun intended).

I am positive weight loss is very complicated because of the thing where your body tries to stabalise itself at a certain weight. I saw a great bbc documentary about it. It demonstrated that basically someone who has been heavier than a given weight needs to eat less than someone who has only ever been that given weight to stay there. So if i want to stay at 10 stone having lost a stone I have to eat less calories than if I had been 10 stone all a long.

I have recently lost weight and i really hope to be stable at my new weight but i have been focusing on keeping my blood sugar stable rather than weight loss. Ill have to report back in 5 years if it worked!

We are being actively told that a high carbohydrate diet is good for us (it's more than a third of the current NHS Eatwell plate) We are not being told that carbohydrates contain very little in the way of nourishment, and are pretty much solely for fueling movement.

This really is not true of complex carbs. They are a source of fibre, B vitamins and Vitamin E, as well as being more satiating than simple carbs.

@Lemons1571

Did you cut out veg then, and so, fibre?

I'm trying to work out why a low carb diet with veg would cause constipation.

As someone who was overweight as a child and for a lot of her adult life I can say the only thing that has worked for me is intermittent fasting and moving every day ( Pilates/ Yoga/ dogs)

The word "complex" (before carbohydrates) seems to be too difficult to understand or remember.

@CounsellorTroi

We are being actively told that a high carbohydrate diet is good for us (it's more than a third of the current NHS Eatwell plate) We are not being told that carbohydrates contain very little in the way of nourishment, and are pretty much solely for fueling movement.

This really is not true of complex carbs. They are a source of fibre, B vitamins and Vitamin E, as well as being more satiating than simple carbs.

The minimal amount of vitamins you get in ratio to the amount of calories you have to eat means it makes a lot more sense to get those vitamins elsewhere.

They are not solely, but pretty much solely for fueling movement.

[quote TheFoundations]@Lemons1571

Did you cut out veg then, and so, fibre?

I'm trying to work out why a low carb diet with veg would cause constipation.[/quote]
Well I ate loads of salad. Not much veg, but didn’t avoid it on purpose. Just salad easier and quicker.to prepare.

I don’t know why it caused the constipation, I think I probably ate too little solids, and it caused my bowel to slow down a bit and it then all dried out a bit and a blockage grew. But I’ll probably never know for sure!

If you weren't eating any veg beyond salad, that would be why you were experiencing constipation. You weren't getting enough fibre (and also would have been missing out on important nutrients).

Not very much fibre in salad, @Lemons1571

I'm sorry but aside from a few health conditions which may impact metabolism, for the vast majority of people, reducing calorie intake can and does lead to weight loss.
It is physically impossible to maintain weight if you're not consuming enough energy to run your body, that is why someone who starves themselves or is starved, eventually wastes away. Yes sometimes it feels like you need to eat less than is comfortable as you have become accustomed to a certain amount of food, but you can still lose weight by cutting calories.
The biggest issue in our society is highly processed, high sugar, calorie dense foods that don't make you feel full for long. Obesity has spiralled in the last 50 years due to the foods we eat and the amount of it, it's as simple as that. I'm not saying people are greedy, far from it. It is very difficult to live in the society we do and maintain a healthy weight.

@Suspicioussam

It's perfectly possible for the body to deal with a calorie deficit by maintaining its fat levels and using less energy to deal with its other myriad jobs.

This is why you find people cutting calories, not losing weight, and feeling increasingly shit.

You have to create a calorie deficit, yes. But you also have to create a hormonal environment in which the body is encouraged to burn its fat.

It's not complicated, but it's not as simple as you're making out. You missed a very very vital step, and it's the one that's keeping many people overweight however hard they try.

@thefoundations I realise the human body isn't simple, I referred to simplicity in terms of the reason obesity has hugely increased in the last 50 years (diet). A calorie burnt whilst exercising doesn't necessarily equal a calorie eaten etc and metabolisms vary, I understand all that, but the OPs point was that CICO and 'everything in moderation' is bollocks and surgery is the only option. That just isn't true.
Obesity has spiralled in the last 50 years and the human body hasn't evolved in that time, our diets and lifestyles have.
I think the biggest issue is WHAT people eat, not how much they eat. I think people focus on reducing calories, feel starving and tired and understandably qive up. we live in a culture of unhealthy eating. We all think cereal for breakfast is normal, there was nothing normal about cereal 100 years. Carbohydrates form the bulk of the average diet which won't make anyone feel full for long.
It would take a huge shift in how we eat as a nation to tackle obesity for most people and to stop them getting stuck in that trap in the first place.

If you'd said that the first time, I'd have agreed with you!

Damn. Couldnt get fast800 meal replacements in town. Looked in two chemists and two health food shops. Will order them online.

But im already so inspired to cut out snacking, narrow my window of eating and eat fewer carbs.

I like wstching ivor cummins and dr zoe halcome online to get in to the zone again.

@ManifestingJoy

Damn. Couldnt get fast800 meal replacements in town. Looked in two chemists and two health food shops. Will order them online. But im already so inspired to cut out snacking, narrow my window of eating and eat fewer carbs.

I like wstching ivor cummins and dr zoe halcome online to get in to the zone again.

DM me and I’ll send you an unopened pack of vanilla shake for postage! They are rubbish, don’t satisfy hunger at all so you’re just using up 200 calories in order to get some nutrients into you. You’d be better off with a vitamin pill and 200 cals of food.

I thought they’d make me feel full.

@BIWI @TheFoundations am now also taking psyllium which is doing the trick!

Ah right! You're very kind @haveringwavering 😀 Im in Ireland so postage would be more, so I will just say thank you for the truthful disappointing review and ill save you the effort of wrapping it all up etc. Thank you for the offer though!

I think my head is in the right zone now, for proper low carb foods.

I used to fry up a 100 gm courgette and a 100 gm leek in garlic butter, and just add slighty different things to it nearly every day when i was keto. It was lovely. But it felt counterintuitive to be holding back on tomatoes and raspberries. It will be so much easier if im not trying to keep under 20 net carbs. That was a tall order 😬 I tell ya.

The weight fell off me doing keto but i cant face losing 10 kilos and putting them back on again, AGAIN!

[quote Lemons1571]**@BIWI* @TheFoundations* am now also taking psyllium which is doing the trick![/quote]
I used to put that stuff in my "keto bread"

It ... keeps one regular. 🤪

I must make some more of them but i wont be obsessive about how many net carbs in each bun this time round.

Just to mention, I didn’t say that surgery was the only answer. I don’t think it is for people with a BMI of 35 or under. For many with a very high BMI, I think it probably is the only answer though, although there are always exceptions. I have reduced my weight without surgery.

Thank you so much @BIWI that ZH piece was very informative. It makes so much sense. Also, I’d like to join your boot camp even though I’ve been doing this for a while but it would be good to chat to likeminded people.

To the person who asked about constipation, yeah it’s pretty common but make sure you don’t confuse not pooing every day for constipation. Constipation is where it’s there but it’s not coming out whereas on this woe you often stop producing as much waste compared to when you’re eating carbs. I probably go about 4 times a week now and I’m not constipated. It’s a myth that you absolutely must have a daily bowel movement, as it depends on how much waste your body produces. Psyllium husks are good though!

I'm really pleased to have reached my target weight of 9st down from the 13 stone i weighed on 3 February. During the last 8 months I have done a lot of work on why i over eat, what my triggers are and working on new strategies for a happier healthier life. It has been entirely down to calorie counting that I've lost the weight and mapping calories out against calories in on my Garmin watch. I have listened to m body and found exercise I really like - running for the first time in 10 years and trying to cycle (work in progress) plus just pilates and yoga at the sports centre. I know that I just don't like doing spin classes with a bunch of very sweaty men. I feel confident about keeping it off, I don't even like some of the foods that were causing me problems earlier in the year. My aim in losing weight and becoming more fit and healthy is to prepare me for retirement when there are so many things I want to do where a huge tummy would just slow me down. I've also resolved my previously high blood pressure. The truth of the matter is that weight loss is hard, there are many psychological factors and physical ones. I know it is possible to lose weight and I'm working on strategies to keep it off. Yesterday I met my son in London and usually we would have gone out to lunch. I took a picnic and we spent some time in a beautiful park instead, that is the sort of thing I mean.

@ExConstance

Congratulations, you must be really chuffed!

I've got a question though.

It has been entirely down to calorie counting that I've lost the weight and mapping calories out against calories in on my Garmin watch

How do you know it wasn't down to something else that you did as a result of dropping your calories/upping your exercise? Doing that would mean that you could eat a higher proportion of carbs without storing them as fat - how do you know if wasn't balancing your carbs that lost you the weight, rather than the calorie deficit itself?

Hi OP, agree with most of what you say. Meta analyses of maintaining weight loss demonstrate that over 80% of people who have lost weight put it all back on within 5 years. For example see - www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5764193/

This academic article (alongside many others) provides evidence for most of what you say although no strong evidence here for any particular diet being more effective. I’m with you in that low carb is my best eating envelope and I suspect the same for many. I have full healthy fat everything with plenty of protein. Went from BMI 36 to maintaining at around 24 for three years now. More to the point, all my health stats are now good, blood pressure, resting heart rate, heart rate recovery, etc. Occasional craving for simple carbs but that just leads to more intense cravings and constant hunger - which I don’t have the magic willpower resources to overcome. Funny that as it doesn’t apply to any other aspect of my life where willpower is required.

See photo for simple graph of typical weight regain patterns.

Also - re surgery being the best option for many - from the same article

“ Both patients and healthcare providers have wildly unrealistic expectations for weight loss outcomes. In one study, patients entering a diet and exercise program expected to lose 20–40% of their starting body weight - amounts that can only realistically be achieved by bariatric surgery. Physician expectations are similarly inflated: in a survey of primary care physicians, acceptable behavioral weight loss was considered to be a loss of 21% of initial body weight. In contrast, numerous studies show that diet, exercise, and behavioral counseling, in the best of cases, only leads to 5–10% average weight loss, and few patients with significantly elevated initial weights achieve and maintain an “ideal” body weight.”

Yes, of course, there are exceptions as some PPs have demonstrated. However, the scientific evidence backs up the OP for those with high BMIs. Given the high costs of treating associated health problems such as diabetes, high blood pressure, heart problems, mobility problems, mental health problems etc, surgery should be much more readily available as a cost effective means of treating current levels of obesity. In the longer term, much more has to be done by everyone - the government, food manufacturers, healthcare providers, and schools to name a few - in order to fully understand the challenges and provide more effective prevention strategies and solutions with much better success rates.