To feel I have utterly let down my children by sending then to a state school?

[hibbledibble]

I went to a private school, and achieved very well academically.

My children go to a state school, as I can't afford private school. I will never be able to afford it sadly. They go to the local community school, which has a reputation for not being academic.

My eldest is extremely bright, and tested many years ahead of her age on entering the local primary. Now, she has failed to even get to the second round of the 11+. She has really just coasted at school, as they have not set any appropriate work for her, despite multiple requests. They say they can't offer 'gifted and talented' provision, due to funding.

Her sibling is very behind on learning, as she missed loads of school due to lockdowns, and the school offered very little remote provision throughout most of the time. I have asked for support for her, but am told that nothing is available, again, due to funding. Meanwhile, she is struggling with even the basics.

I do think that both of my children would have done better, had they gone to a school where their individual abilities and learning stage was catered for, and they were helped to achieve their potential. I feel I have let them down by not providing them with a good education, which they could have had if I had the money.

Now it's looking likely my eldest will have to go to the terrible, and rough, local secondary, and the underachieving will continue.

@hibbledibble you have not failed, it has been one hell of a time over the last 18 months. Be a little kinder to yourself.

They have missed so much school over the last 18 months. If year 6, the last uninterrupted year they had was year 3!!!! You have got through a pandemic homeschooling, interrupted education whilst working as a junior doctor - seriously give yourself a break.

In school provision in a lot of state schools for key workers has not been proper schooling. It has been so varied across the country from school to school. Almost a pot luck education. Yes I get they would have it better in private, but more because private schools were able to gear up to the changes more consistently. That's not to say some state schools didn't do fantastically but if you lucked out and got one that didn't - well it's a big gap to fill.

For large swathes of our children it's about catch up. I know for mine it's been both emotionally as well as academically. Being stuck in seemed to take away some of the enthusiasm (can't think of a better word atm).

Tutors is a good way to go, they are young enough still to get back into the swing.

There are also some excellent online offerings that are a lot cheaper. Mine use an international online platform for live classes - not just for academic but for things they are interested in (art classes, social interest). They have to take the academic catch up classes to get a fun class - if that makes sense.

It will be all be ok. Many of us are in a similar boat. Maybe this post should be moved to education.

DS2 goes to a secondary academy and has been in the top form consistently since year 7. He really wouldn't do any better in a private school.

The middle class mums of MN hate the idea that any child is receiving a better education (or anything really) than theirs.
So the rallying cry is that a bright child (ie theirs) will do well anywhere. State schools are brilliant. Better than private schools. Yadda. Yadda.

But the stats show that this is not true.
State education in the U.K. is horrifically underfunded.
The schools are crowded, and as we have seen in the pandemic utterly outdated.
The teachers are on their knees and pitted against a government who hates them.

@HelloMissus

The middle class mums of MN hate the idea that any child is receiving a better education (or anything really) than theirs. So the rallying cry is that a bright child (ie theirs) will do well anywhere. State schools are brilliant. Better than private schools. Yadda. Yadda.

But the stats show that this is not true.
State education in the U.K. is horrifically underfunded.
The schools are crowded, and as we have seen in the pandemic utterly outdated.
The teachers are on their knees and pitted against a government who hates them.

I agree with much of this re mn and private - see current Starmer thread.

But my perspective is probably altered by a state dc getting in to highly academically selective school in London, without much tutoring etc

And another state dc getting 9s for A level

But I also use private which is impressive there are differences yes

What I find really interesting is that with just two kids to consider you have many reasons why the practicalities of doing more at home didn't work. But somehow you expect a school who has what 2/3 hundred kids to meet all their needs?

Haven’t RTFT but I know it’s a big regret of my DF that he couldn’t afford to send me & DB private. DF was educated at a grammar but they were no longer in our area by the time I was born. The nearest borough to us that still had them was 20+ miles away; not practical to travel and too expensive to move to (as a result of the good schools in the area).

The difference is, from what I have heard, children are challenged, they have smaller classes and are taught to ‘read around’ a subject. At my crappy comp, we were only in sets for maths, English, science and languages. Every other lesson was working to the lowest level, which meant many of the brighter students were bored.

I’m guessing that you’re also among others who want to learn, again state schools IME can be half an hour of behaviour management before the lesson actually starts. An ex-colleague was a primary teacher for a while and said she regularly had 5 year olds tell her to fuck off. I can’t imagine that would be tolerated in private.

@HaveringWavering

Out of interest, those who have ended up doing lots of extension work at home, or having tutors, don’t you resent the extra time that takes out of your child’s free time? I would be uncomfortable thinking that they were finishing a day/week at school and coming home to more work. Seems like a really inefficient use of time. I’m not talking about the general “life learning” that we all do when maths problems and things pop up in everyday life, or they are reading something for pleasure and also learn from it. But sitting down to workbooks etc. As a kid, no matter how bright, I’d resent that.

Mine never resented it. Workbooks are often written in a way to engage a child, as are the online provisions, and I did no more than 10 mins each a day with them at primary level. It was enough to get them solid in their maths and spag. They never resented books, reading, trips or Our Planet etc. My aim was always to work with them enough so they didn’t feel like they were struggling and so enjoyed their learning at school. I also wanted to engage them with the world around them and love learning. I found doing the extra work had a positive ripple effect.

Arguably, any child that needs tutoring to get through the 11+ shouldn't be going to a selective grammar anyway, as they aren't really cut out for it. This hits home in around year 9, when they realise that they aren't as 'good' as their peers

The point is that there are now very few grammar schools, especially in some areas. Therefore, it’s not a case of simply passing the 11+ and then off you go to grammar school. The pass rate for 11+ and the percentage marks needed to get into the particularly grammar school you’ve applied to are often completely different.

That’s what the tutoring is generally for - not to pass but to excel enough to actually get in. My nearest grammar in is the next county. Frequently, the cut off for entry has been around 90%. This is because of the high number of applications due to the lack of grammar schools here. Everybody who takes the 11+ to go there passes but only those who do very well over and above that pass rate get in.

@hibbledibble

electric I'm a doctor, so I have done well academically, and professionally. Unfortunately, private school fees have gone up way above inflation, and doctor's wages have stagnated to below inflation. I have not failed, but have chosen a job I am passionate about, rather than one which is well paid.

I get really tired of doctors claiming they are not well paid.

@hibbledibble

electric I'm a doctor, so I have done well academically, and professionally. Unfortunately, private school fees have gone up way above inflation, and doctor's wages have stagnated to below inflation. I have not failed, but have chosen a job I am passionate about, rather than one which is well paid.

What a deeply annoying statement. I've just checked online, and the MINIMUM pay for a GP, so the lowest doctor of the low, is £62K. You presumably earn well above that at your age. Do you understand that you are earning far far more than most people? Even if you are single I'd expect you to be able to afford some private education if you really wanted to. You could for instance have put your DCs into private school for the last 3 years of primary, to work towards grammar school entry. You could also have tutored your DC for grammar school yourself, or have paid for tutoring online. It's not rocket science. My DC went to a bog standard primary and I successfully tutored them for grammar school, though had to send them to a comprehensive in the end. By the way, on entering primary school at age 4, it's impossible to be "many years ahead". So why are you claiming that?

Having an experienced tutor alert you to whether an NVR question is to do with symmetry or whatever, can be helpful.

A ‘gifted and talented’ child doesn’t need a tutor to teach them how to do NVR questions. A tutored child would be doing well because someone else taught them how to do it, not because they figured it out on their own.

This is why you can’t prepare children for IQ tests for example (the kind that last 3 days long and are done by a psychologist, not the ones you buy on a cheapie website). The idea is that a truly naturally gifted child will automatically know how to resolve those questions without any outside input.

Is this how your daughter was deemed to be 7-8 years ahead of her normal age, academically? Or was that just a teacher saying that when she was reading higher band books at a very young age? Some children read 10+ books at 4 but it doesn’t make them gifted.

IQ classification systems have 130 as the minimum average for a child to be considered gifted. That’s on the 98th percentile. I was 5 years ahead academically, and my IQ (150+) puts me on the 99.97 percentile.

To be 7-8 years ahead you’d have to be even higher. A child with those capacities, left unchallenged, can become completely disengaged and a ‘failure’ at school. The parents and the school need to be constantly pushing for new ways to challenge the child and give them appropriate work because otherwise their motivation will disappear. But that’s not something that becomes evident at the 11+, the signs are there much earlier and need ‘solving’ as soon as possible.

@deadleaves
I get really tired of doctors claiming they are not well paid.

Sorry, that must be tough for you to hear. It’s all relative though. For someone who got top grades at GCSE, then at A level, then got through a tough 5-6 year university course, then continued to do courses and professional exams in their spare time alongside work. For the level at which doctors function, for their hard work and skills, they can get paid over £100K in the private sector (or over 2-300K if lucky). And many of their university friends do so. So doctors are relatively under-paid.

As there's a shortage of doctors, why don't you get a new job and move to somewhere where the local state school is good? Or spend some of your very large salary on sending your DD to private school? You could move her to private at 13, to save money on the first 2 years of secondary. Then keep her in private for 3 years, and send her to the 6th form of a grammar school for 6th form. Lots of options for someone in your happy position.

"Arguably, any child that needs tutoring to get through the 11+ shouldn't be going to a selective grammar anyway, as they aren't really cut out for it."

So out of touch with reality... 🤣

@Theendoftheworldisnigh
I've just checked online, and the MINIMUM pay for a GP, so the lowest doctor of the low, is £62K. You presumably earn well above that at your age.
I’m afraid this speaks to your ignorance. GPs are not “the lowest of the low”. Qualified GPs have worked for at least five years after medical school. In those first five years, the salary is much lower than £62K. If part-time, those first five years last much longer. If OP is doing a non-GP specialty, the training path is longer. E.g. for general hospital medicine, it takes 10 years full-time-equivalent to get to consultant.

@Theendoftheworldisnigh
As there's a shortage of doctors, why don't you get a new job and move to somewhere where the local state school is good?
Another bit of ignorance. Doctors in training jobs can’t easily move. We’re not self employed. We sign onto a training contract which lasts a set number of years, and we rotate placements within a geographical location every 4-6 months with very little choice over where we go.

[quote 5329871e]@Theendoftheworldisnigh
I've just checked online, and the MINIMUM pay for a GP, so the lowest doctor of the low, is £62K. You presumably earn well above that at your age.
I’m afraid this speaks to your ignorance. GPs are not “the lowest of the low”. Qualified GPs have worked for at least five years after medical school. In those first five years, the salary is much lower than £62K. If part-time, those first five years last much longer. If OP is doing a non-GP specialty, the training path is longer. E.g. for general hospital medicine, it takes 10 years full-time-equivalent to get to consultant.[/quote]
The starting salary for a consultant in the NHS is £85K, ffs. That's about 3 times the average UK salary.

@Theendoftheworldisnigh
The starting salary for a consultant in the NHS is £85K, ffs. That's about 3 times the average UK salary.
For some of the brightest and hardest-working 35+ year olds in the country, do you think that’s a lot? Honestly I can admit feeling a bit hard done by, when friends who didn’t do as well as me at school/uni are on 3 times my salary.

It’s all relative, like I said above.
OP is sad she can’t afford private school because that’s the environment/culture she was brought up in, and probably most of her friends are sending their kids to private school.

If the OP really is an impoverished doctor, then I suggest she encourages her DD at the best local secondary school she can find, with tutors if really necessary, and then puts her into grammar school at 6th form age. Or moves her to private school when OP finishes her doctor training and has a big pay increase.
Why feel guilty if you can't afford something? Assuming you're not wasting money on holidays, nice cars, etc.
My DC passed the test for 2 great grammar schools, but due to personal circumstances ended up going to a comprehensive. I felt sad but not guilty, and with a lot of parental input she has developed skills she would not have developed if she had gone to grammar or private, which are opening up options for her.

This is ridiculous. I went to a private school and I have watched my children have a far superior education than I ever had! Both have thrived in state schools and my eldest is currently at university.

If your children aren't learning then surely the problem is with your children? I accept some schools are better than others so perhaps you should consider moving them?

I know how you feel, I went to a private boarding school for primary and then state secondary and the private taught me a good work ethic. I would have loved my children to go to private schools but with 3 it is out of the question. However, now the eldest is settled in state secondary I definitely wouldn't move him as he is comfortable socially there and, to be fair, it's a great school.

I think tutors are your answer here. It's frustrating when your children aren't realising their potential and I suspect a lot of it is down to their personalities as I do believe a clever, motivated child will do fine anywhere.

OP isn't a GP or a consultant, she's a junior dr

@Theendoftheworldisnigh

Read the thread? OP is not a GP/consultant yet she's a junior doctor.

Many dc do very well in state school with the right family support and work ethics at home. There’s good private schools but also terrible ones so it’s not as straight forward as paid for being better.