Would you be off sick if you weren't being paid?

[MakeMineALarge1]

I work for the NHS, the sick package is very good, full pay for 6 months then half pay for another 6.

I know that its very stressful at the moment in acute care, sickness in our department is currently at 30% with up to 6 members of staff off per shift.

Lots of people citing stress etc, needing time out, and this is granted on full pay.

If you were self employed or hourly paid, would as people still be off with stress and still need "time out"

It seems a lot of threads on here start with "my anxiety" or I have PTSD or I am depressed. Is it too easy nowadays to ring your GP and be signed off on this basis?

@FateHasRedesignedMost has described my experience. I worked in the nhs for a very long time with an exemplary sickness and absence record. Then I was injured and needed surgery then more surgery. My absence was monitored more and more aggressively until I was dismissed after 11 months.

There were undoubtedly a minority of people who played the system and knew exactly how much they could get away with without triggering an hr meeting. Some viewed sickness and emergency leave as part of the annual entitlement to time off. Everyone knew who they were.

DH runs a private sector business who pay full salary to those unwell but in 30 years has never had any issues with piss taking. Maybe he’s been lucky but it’s very noticeably different.

Continuing Heathcare Funding is more about getting your care paid for, nothing to do with sick pay, I thought.

I’m signed off at the moment and only getting Ssp and only till the end of the month. Joys of agency work.don’t think I’ll be better though have been referred to an neuro for a consultation. Tested to the max ct scan, lumbar puncture, mri and bloods. They think it’s migraines with neurological deficiencies or early stages of autoimmune disease. I have another job lined up but the medication makes me drowsy/ woozy. I’m thinking about offering to work a couple of days for them but I don’t know if I can physically manage or I’ll end up exhausted and rehospitalised. Can’t afford not to work though so it’s a real catch 22. Wish I had a decent sickness scheme!

I'm not NHs but have a similar sick leave policy. I've worked for 38 years in various companies with similar (as far as I know) I've nery rarely been off.

However, i've just had 5 months off with stress and no, i couldn't have worked even if I wasn't being paid. Even though the GP was nothing but helpful, even calling and having to deal with that on a regular basis (to renew sick note) was really hard. I'm on a phased return now but finding it hard so using my holidays to extend it a bit.

Do some people swing the lead? I would say that's highly probable. Are a lot of people burnt out and cant cope anymore? Also highly probable.

One of the reasons NHS struggles is because of the higher the average sick leave NHS staff take. You could argue that it’s because they are under pressure so more likely to get sick, but then it comes back to the fact that so many people abuse the policy that the organization is likely to be under pressure. And the so the cycle continues

My sil worked for local council, which has sick leave similar to nhs. She was off all week with sinusitis, but come the Friday she felt much better! She went to her bfs on the Friday night. Out for a Chinese, went away for the day on the Saturday, out for lunch on the Sunday. Sunday night she came home to her parents, saying she wasn’t feeling great. Mil just said to her that she should phone work in the morning and tell them she still wasn’t well, which is what she did. Even got gp to write her a week’s sick line! Would she have been off if she wasn’t getting paid? Would she hell!!

I also had a colleague (nhs). When we had works nights out, which were usually on a Friday, if she was due to work the weekend she was absolutely always off sick! Everyone knew she had a hangover, but nothing was ever done and she was always paid.

I also had another colleague, when I worked bank shifts for a community alarm system, who took the piss as well. Once was when I was called in with less than an hour to spare to work the night shift as colleague due to do shift had just phoned in sick. I didn’t want to do shift but the back shift would have had to stay on till morning if I hadn’t. My sister was out at a concert that night and then on to a nightclub. Who did she run into but…..yes, colleague who was off sick! I did report her and offered my boss phone numbers of 3 people who had seen her. Did my boss do anything? No, she didn’t even speak to her about it and she was paid for the full shift at the enhanced rate.

It's a difficult one. Some people do abuse the sick pay scheme & some GP's will sign off people on the basis that a patient tells them they are too ill to work. I work in HR and have seen it all over the years including telling people they can't come back to work just because their sick pay has run out if they are not well enough.

Mental health is the new bad back - subjective and difficult to prove one way or the other. My big concern is that those who claim mental health issues when they are not genuine make it more difficult for those who do have issues. This can make genuine cases reluctant to come forward and get the right support which is a big problem as the earlier we can support people, the easier it is to help them get better.

@sst1234

One of the reasons NHS struggles is because of the higher the average sick leave NHS staff take. You could argue that it’s because they are under pressure so more likely to get sick, but then it comes back to the fact that so many people abuse the policy that the organization is likely to be under pressure. And the so the cycle continues

True for some people but you are more likely to pick up illnesses dealing with sick people and also get injuries when dealing with patients that are increasingly overweight, dealing with dying or depressed people constantly. Facing abuse and violence and yes, covering for absent colleagues plus being on constant overtime all takes it toll.

I was just about to start a thread about this.

The nhs sick pay is a joke.

for me it wasn't easy being off. The worst of my physical symptoms (heart palpitations, panic attacks, struggling to breath and swallow food) started to ease off after about 2 months but thinking of work would trigger things again. I got some counselling to help manage things better which helped but i found the sheer amount of things that needed to be managed to remain off e.g contact with GP, Occupational health, counselling, meetings with management etc. pretty overwhelming in themselves so it's not a jolly holiday. Some days i'd be completely frozen and unable to engage in anything, others I'd be restless and pace the house constantly. I can see now though that if I wanted to be off again in the future, I would know how to get time off even if I wasn't ill. So I guess it might be a temptation for some.

In the realms of things that are a joke, i'd maybe start with Politicians getting a full pension after serving only one term in office.

I've never taken time off sick unless very sick. I think the last time I was off sick properly was about seven years ago, I was incredibly unwell with a possible cancer diagnosis. Was horrific and scary.

I don't think in general our team does. I sometimes have told people telling me they're coming in because they only have the plague, to stay home.

I've not actually known anyone who has taken time off without being properly unwell. At one point I could have taken time off due to stress, my GP wanted to sign me off and I refused.

If anything I think people tend to go into work when they really really shouldn't. Which annoys me as I really don't want their lurgy.

No one should have to drag themselves to work if they feel awful. I think it's great that the NHS pays sick leave so well especially given the nature of the job.

I am self employed and have chronic illnesses and definitely push myself too far a great deal because I can't afford to not work. Doesn't mean it's right though!

Back before I worked in healthcare, I had no choice but to go to work as there was no sick package. This was done by pretty much all staff if you wanted food on your table and bills paid, the pay was awful anyway as it was a retail job. The issue was, there was an occasion where I was genuinely unwell (nothing contagious, long term heart issues) and still went to work over fear of being short of money. Long story short I ended up in hospital and I do believe it was that I over did things (Christmas rush so store was packed and we were run off our feet). So although some people take advantage I do think some people genuinely almost kill themselves going in when they need a letter to sign them off but won’t get it for this reason. Looking back I was a fool but it’s definitely easy for me to say now that I’m in a job that pays you in full for sick leave.

I was off for a month with acute stress earlier this year. I’ve never felt more physically as well as mentally ill. I lost almost a stone as I couldn’t swallow properly, and lived on the brink of a panic attack for weeks. It was hideous.
‘Anxiety and depression’ can be crippling, even deadly.

I think the 3 absences and then disciplinary is counter productive though.

A colleague had had 1 day off with a stomach bug in about February. In November he was injured at work, he was off for a couple of weeks with a shoulder and back injury but wanted to get back so returned to work and realised within a few days that he really wasn't healed enough and then faced a disciplinary meeting when he came back. There was no question that he was not swinging the lead or faking, So if he was off again, he might be tempted to stay off beyond when he felt able to return to ensure that it was only one period of sickness

@Phyllis321

I was off for a month with acute stress earlier this year. I’ve never felt more physically as well as mentally ill. I lost almost a stone as I couldn’t swallow properly, and lived on the brink of a panic attack for weeks. It was hideous. ‘Anxiety and depression’ can be crippling, even deadly.

It's awful isn't it? I hope you are feeling better now. There is also the guilt you feel for your colleagues as well but I learned from counselling that it's not my fault that I was ill.

I've now read the email i sent to management on the day I just couldn't do it anymore and i'd added "don't worry i'm not going to harm myself" but actually I thought about it a lot.

So many people take advantage of over generous sick pay schemes. And it's their colleagues who usually have to work twice as hard when those skivers are off 'sick' yet again.

One of the hardest working people i know went into a patients room who had hung themselves in the bathroom with absolutey no risk factors that would have indicated it. She cut him down, resuscitated him, got him up to ICU. Contacted family and explained what happened. Came back down and cleared all the room and an hour later another sick patient (along with another 6 who were already allocated to her) was in the bed ready for her to take care of. She called in sick with anxiety and was off for a week, she didn't sleep for 36 hours following the trauma. Yet she's off for her 'anxiety' so maybe other people might assume its subjective and she's just chilling at home.

Healthcare workers are working in an environment that the majority of the public cannot comprehend being in every day for 40 years. We see crazy, horrible, traumatic things all day every day. Working in such a pressured traumatic environment can cause burnout. Burnout which makes you double at risk to have a medication error and 17%more likely to be named in a malpractice suit. And that's ignoring the stuff that goes unreported. And contributing to the high suicide rates amongst healthcare workers. All this was going on long before covid and the strain has only just become worse. 1 in 5 ICU nurses recently surveyed admitted to thoughts of self harm or suicide.

There will always be pisstakers but that would be a particularly poor reason to penalise those who really need the support of a bit of time off to be able to function.

I thought about it every day, Elephant.
Thank god for fluoxetine..

I work in the NHS. It’s amazing how some people make a miraculous recovery after 6 months sick when they’re due to go on half pay.

Been self-employed and employed and have taken time off both times with mental health issues. Was way way worse as self-employed because I kept going too long for fear of not earning enough and when off could not focus enough on recovering because each day felt like I was failing to provide which made my mental health worse. Been off in my sick pay job a couple of times, way shorter, faster recovery because I could tend to myself without that extra stress and go off ill earlier before it got too bad. I’m a more effective employee for it, and highly loyal to the understanding company I work for who ensure my wellbeing is looked after. My last annual appraisal I was assessed as outstanding, despite the pesky MH sick days.

As to if it’s ‘too easy’ to get signed off with mental health - well frankly it’s the sort of thing people can claim to have when they don’t, much like back pain etc used to be. Doesn’t mean it’s not incredibly common and debilitating.

What exactly is your problem with peope having sick pay with mental health as a reason, if you have one ( which it sounds like you do based on your post). And what is your solution to this issue OP? What do you think should happen to people with sick pay who go off with mental health issues? Since you’ve been asking the questions it would be nice to get your views.

@ElephantOfRisk

I think the 3 absences and then disciplinary is counter productive though.

A colleague had had 1 day off with a stomach bug in about February. In November he was injured at work, he was off for a couple of weeks with a shoulder and back injury but wanted to get back so returned to work and realised within a few days that he really wasn't healed enough and then faced a disciplinary meeting when he came back. There was no question that he was not swinging the lead or faking, So if he was off again, he might be tempted to stay off beyond when he felt able to return to ensure that it was only one period of sickness

That’s a sickness review rather then a disciplinary?

What are the companies P&P and with it being a workplace injury were HSE informed?

I worked somewhere with 6 months paid sick pay and people absolutely took the mick with getting signed off. Everywhere I’ve worked since offers no paid sick pay and it’s completely different coming in and not having to cover everyone’s sick leave all the time. On the negative side though people come in with all sorts of illnesses and spread them around!

I was never offered any drugs @Phyllis321, i'm glad that they've helped. I actually would have been back earlier but my bosses just couldn't get their act together. I had to wait weeks for an occ health appointment and then more weeks for them to devise a return to work programme. I've been back 2 weeks and i still haven't been given any work but then I've only managed to get logged on for a few hours. Most of my time has been spent waiting in the queue for IT, speaking to IT or waiting for IT to call me. It's not great as IT issues were part of my stressers. Anyway, now going to use up holidays to stretch out the plan i agreed as I've not really been working yet and I'm back to full time the week after next.