Would you be off sick if you weren't being paid?

[MakeMineALarge1]

I work for the NHS, the sick package is very good, full pay for 6 months then half pay for another 6.

I know that its very stressful at the moment in acute care, sickness in our department is currently at 30% with up to 6 members of staff off per shift.

Lots of people citing stress etc, needing time out, and this is granted on full pay.

If you were self employed or hourly paid, would as people still be off with stress and still need "time out"

It seems a lot of threads on here start with "my anxiety" or I have PTSD or I am depressed. Is it too easy nowadays to ring your GP and be signed off on this basis?

@Cinderss

I worked somewhere with 6 months paid sick pay and people absolutely took the mick with getting signed off. Everywhere I’ve worked since offers no paid sick pay and it’s completely different coming in and not having to cover everyone’s sick leave all the time. On the negative side though people come in with all sorts of illnesses and spread them around!

Yep being of with a cold should be jormalised

@debucnik

I would go one further and say yes people with sick pay take more sick leave. I know I've dragged myself to work many a time when physically or mentally unwell because I simply cany afford to not get paid.

I think that's so true, I recall many years ago, the first day back in school after the Summer holidays, we found out that one teacher, who only ever dealt with three or four pupils at a time, was going to be off until at least half term with stress. It was surprising, once the caravan sites opened, how many were 'ill' on Friday and/or Monday.

That’s a sickness review rather then a disciplinary?

What are the companies P&P and with it being a workplace injury were HSE informed?

It counts as a warning, can't remember if it's verbal or written.

It was a crash where someone crashed into them and was attended by ambulance, they had an injury which felt better but when they returned to their physical job, it hadn't healed enough,

I used to work in the civil service and you were allowed up to 21 days a year paid self certificated sick leave... so everyone just added the 21 days onto their annual leave entitlement.

DH and I run a small business, and any absence means that the whole place almost grinds to a halt. They're all specialist craftspeople and one cog out the wheel means it's a nightmare. Hence we pay for sick leave at our discretion....... if it means someone stays home with a streaming cold or Norovirus, then we all benefit. We've also given paid leave for bereavement etc.

MH issues are considered along with medical evidence.

I work in the civil service so also very good sick pay the same as in the OP. I didn't get to the point where my pay was reduced but I did have to go under a sick pay performance review period for six months. Any sick time off in that was result in an extended period with performance management. I needed the time off as I did have 'depression and anxiety'; I tried to take my own life so no, the time off wasn't because I felt a little glum. I worked through some pretty awful migraines during that review period and would have done the same if affected my pay.

Unfortunarely I have also worked with people who have been on half pay and then unpaid sick leave while they were having treatment for cancer. Sometimes being off sick cannot be avoided, no matter what your pay policy is.

Having worked with people who work in the NHS if you didn't have the sick leave you have people would just be leaving in droves (more than they are already!)

It's not simply the very difficult emotionally and physically draining work many people in the NHS do, but there seems to also be a horribly toxic culture with expectations on staff not to take breaks, or look after themselves in any way. I have heard many stories of staff being screamed and shouted at by their "managers"; disabled staff not being being given equipment they need to do their job, and other reasonable adjustments being ignored. Others having their health conditions or disabilities disregarded and just being told to get on with their job or similar.

So it doesn't surprise me at all that lots of people are going off on long term sick leave. It sounds horrifically stressful.

Decent sick pay should be normalised, not vilified.

I have 6 months full pay and 6 months half pay. Most people I know will not take sick leave unless completely unavoidable.

I’ve taken some time off for mental health issues. My GP wanted to sign me off sooner but I refused. Eventually I agreed. Had there not been sick pay, no I probably wouldn’t have taken the time off, as I couldn’t have afforded it. But there is a good chance had I not taken time off to get better I wouldn’t be here now. I was having suicidal thoughts at the time.

Nobody should be in the position where they can’t afford to be ill.

Some of the stigma driven comments about mental health on this thread are vile.

At the moment I have no choice as my back has given out.
But I don't go off sick as a rule. Some people are genuine but others just take the piss all of the time.

Mental health doesn't have to mean you are always off sick. I have complex trauma with depression and anxiety and have had for 50 years. I work in the NHS. With the right medication and the support of my manager I have not had a day off in the last three years.
If someone is off sick all of the time then are not receiving the appropriate treatment and this needs to be dealt with.
My employer is not paying me a salary to be off sick with my mental health all of the time. i also have a responsibility to be fit for work.

I think sometimes the difference is the flexibility of self employment, over working for an employer.
I am self employed if I am feeling unwell I can structure my work, do half a day and try to work around the illness to get the work done. An employer often won't do that and there is no incentive for an employee to volunteer to work in that way.

In an.ideal world everyone would be paid full pay however long they were sick but in reality if a person is off sick a replacement has to be paid for as well as the person on sick leave. A huge amount of public money goes on paying extremely generous sick payments. I think all employers both public and private sector should offer at least 4 week fully paid per year. I think 6 months on full pay then 6 months on half pay is too generous. When I was teaching I was on this generous package. I think 3 months full pay followed by 1 month 1/2 pay is more than generous. There are other payment options such as PIP available for people with MH issues affecting their ability to work.

I think it should be the other way round and we should be looking at the people who aren't paid should be and should be supported.

People are struggling into work when they are not well because they can't afford to be off sick - whether this is mental health or physical health. I affects performance and can cost more in the long run.

@Beseen22

One of the hardest working people i know went into a patients room who had hung themselves in the bathroom with absolutey no risk factors that would have indicated it. She cut him down, resuscitated him, got him up to ICU. Contacted family and explained what happened. Came back down and cleared all the room and an hour later another sick patient (along with another 6 who were already allocated to her) was in the bed ready for her to take care of. She called in sick with anxiety and was off for a week, she didn't sleep for 36 hours following the trauma. Yet she's off for her 'anxiety' so maybe other people might assume its subjective and she's just chilling at home.

Healthcare workers are working in an environment that the majority of the public cannot comprehend being in every day for 40 years. We see crazy, horrible, traumatic things all day every day. Working in such a pressured traumatic environment can cause burnout. Burnout which makes you double at risk to have a medication error and 17%more likely to be named in a malpractice suit. And that's ignoring the stuff that goes unreported. And contributing to the high suicide rates amongst healthcare workers. All this was going on long before covid and the strain has only just become worse. 1 in 5 ICU nurses recently surveyed admitted to thoughts of self harm or suicide.

There will always be pisstakers but that would be a particularly poor reason to penalise those who really need the support of a bit of time off to be able to function.

All of this is very true - but only for healthcare professionals. Maybeeeeee some front liners who see horrible things but that’s about it.

‘Work for the NHS’ conveys zero information as to what category of staff OP is.

I am self employed if I am feeling unwell I can structure my work, do half a day and try to work around the illness to get the work done. An employer often won't do that and there is no incentive for an employee to volunteer to work in that way.

For some employed people that is possible to an extent as well. If I had an upset stomach or just a bit below par or coughing and sneezing, i would ask to work from home where i'm not spreading germs and have easy access to the toilet if required. Something like a migraine I couldn't work with but to be honest other than two broken arms or mental health, i would work as much as possible.

I work 2 jobs. One has 6 months full pay, 6 months half. The other job doesn’t pay sick.
Am far more flexible and willing with the one that pays sick. Will work odd hours at busy times to get stuff done. The other job I will do my hours and no more. Even when they are begging me to pick up more shifts. Nope.
I understand why some employers don’t want to pay sick but they can’t really expect much of their staff if they don’t.

@LODReturn

It's a difficult one. Some people do abuse the sick pay scheme & some GP's will sign off people on the basis that a patient tells them they are too ill to work. I work in HR and have seen it all over the years including telling people they can't come back to work just because their sick pay has run out if they are not well enough.

Mental health is the new bad back - subjective and difficult to prove one way or the other. My big concern is that those who claim mental health issues when they are not genuine make it more difficult for those who do have issues. This can make genuine cases reluctant to come forward and get the right support which is a big problem as the earlier we can support people, the easier it is to help them get better.

I do have a history of genuine long term mental health issues. I’ve been very reluctant to take time off because of it. To be honest all these stories of people being off work for months with stress, especially work related stress seems a bit over the top in some cases. What exactly is going to be different when they get back?

There have been occasions when I’ve taken a mental health day because I’m emotionally exhausted or can’t stop crying but I get back to work as soon as I can.

I was signed off for 6 weeks last year. Honestly, the state I was in, I’d have done it unpaid. I couldn’t function.

I’ve had individual days off sick before for e.g. a heavy cold that if I wasn’t going to paid I’d probably have struggled in.

People that don’t get sick pay don’t take time off unless they’re very very ill. You’re absolutely right. My husband and I have this argument all the time.

He gets sick pay I don’t

Yes of course. Sick pay is a benefit that means I don't need to go to work.

@Shehasadiamondinthesky

Mental health doesn't have to mean you are always off sick. I have complex trauma with depression and anxiety and have had for 50 years. I work in the NHS. With the right medication and the support of my manager I have not had a day off in the last three years. If someone is off sick all of the time then are not receiving the appropriate treatment and this needs to be dealt with. My employer is not paying me a salary to be off sick with my mental health all of the time. i also have a responsibility to be fit for work.

Exactly. I’m on anti depressants long term for depression and anxiety but have very few sick days. Plenty of others in my department take the piss all the time and being civil service it seems to be nearly impossible t get rid of them. Even the one at the moment who is off more than she is in and is pretty much a self confessed skiver.

To be honest all these stories of people being off work for months with stress, especially work related stress seems a bit over the top in some cases. What exactly is going to be different when they get back?

Well in my case they've abandoned the new work practice they were introducing, advertised for more staff, brought in temporary contractors, reduced the amount of work required. That wasn't just down to me though, 4 people resigned and I was off sick all from a team of 12.

I couldn't have worked other than the last couple of weeks where I was wanting to return but they didn't want me back it seems as there were delays from their side not mine.

I'm glad that the odd day works for you, but it wouldn't have for me. I needed the time to get my body as well as my head, on an even keel.

Less people would call in sick but I’m not sure why that’s necessarily a good thing? Dragging yourself to work when you’re not well and then infecting other people or working at half capacity until you’re better when you could have taken a day off and been back to work the next day.

I'd also have had to be off paid or otherwise, but not being paid adds even more stress. I was asked if I wanted to apply for Income Replacement via a policy that my company has, it would have paid me half pay until whenever I returned, retired or died. If I wanted to I could have really taken the piss.

In answer to your question, yes I would be off sick if I didn't get paid. I have been working for the NHS for 8 + plus years and in that time I have had 1 sickness period of 1 month after a bereavement. I would have taken the leave unpaid if necessary as I was not fit for work.

Please look at updating your mental health training which will hopefully adjust your attitude towards those suffering with poor mental health.