Would you be off sick if you weren't being paid?

[MakeMineALarge1]

I work for the NHS, the sick package is very good, full pay for 6 months then half pay for another 6.

I know that its very stressful at the moment in acute care, sickness in our department is currently at 30% with up to 6 members of staff off per shift.

Lots of people citing stress etc, needing time out, and this is granted on full pay.

If you were self employed or hourly paid, would as people still be off with stress and still need "time out"

It seems a lot of threads on here start with "my anxiety" or I have PTSD or I am depressed. Is it too easy nowadays to ring your GP and be signed off on this basis?

I think it could go 50/50. If you're genuinely unwell, you'll be taking time off work anyway... on the other hand, if it's just a sniffle/hangover, there would be more incentive to attend work if pay would be reduced.

Years ago I worked for an employer who would pay minimum wage plus an 'attendance bonus' every month which bumped the salary up to the market rate for that position. If you were off sick that month you wouldn't get the 'attendance bonus' portion of your salary. This probably did work to reduce absence 'for no good reason', but on the other hand it also increased office attendance while people were unwell and I've never caught so many illnesses (coughs, cold, norovirus, swine flu) via a workplace before. I worked there during the swine flu epidemic and when I caught it (most likely from colleagues) and was absent from work as a result I felt unfairly penalised as I was genuinely far too unwell to attend work (all because of work)! Surprise surprise, I left the company after about 6 months as I couldn't take the risk of losing salary due to illnesses likely caught via the workplace itself due to their policy!

Yes I would if it was bad enough. I've just gotten over a nasty stomach bug, or could have been food poisoning. They weren't sure. But did end up in hospital over night on Friday very poorly. Blood coming out of places it shouldn't have been coming from. Took a few days to get over it. Feeling a bit better now, thank goodness. But no, I could not have gone into work like that, no way. I'm on minimum wage, so sick pay isn't that good, but I didn't really have a choice

I get what you mean though, some people might take the piss if they knew they were getting paid (or paid well) but I'd imagine they would be in the minority

A bit controversial, but ikwym

I was a self employed barrister for years. We basically never took time off - not just because we wouldn’t be paid for time off but because your cases couldn’t continue without you.

I did show that it was possible to cope with no or very little time off, but it’s not ideal at all.

People who don't get sick pay have no choice but to work when they are sick but this isn't a good thing.

For a start, depending on the illness and working environment going in when sick has the potential to infect others, has the last 18 months taught you nothing?

Sick pay is frequently “ sold” as part of a remuneration package and often it means employers are offering lower salaries or freezes so that they can include this benefit.

In the case of employees without this benefit or self employed there are insurance products that can be purchased such as income protection policies or key person benefits.

So I guess what I’m saying if you are choosing a job based on salary or potential earnings you also need to consider the entire package. Nobody wants to pay for insurance but if you don’t have then you should pay for it, not judge other people just because they have the benefit or have bought cover.

I'm self employed so I work when I'm ill unless I'm so I'll that I literally can't move because if I don't work, my family doesn't eat.
Being able to be off when ill is a luxury, not many se people can, people on zero hours contracts, people with crappy employers, etc.
None of that means that those who get sick pay shouldn't be off when ill. Ideally everyone who is ill should be able to take time off to recover.

My partner had a lot of time off sick with mental health issues. He just got SSP.

There's no way he could have done his public facing job at the time. His biggest fear was literally starting screaming in work and not being able to stop.

So no, decent sick pay wouldn't have meant he was off for longer, but it might have allowed us to pay for the help he was unable to access in a timely fashion on the NHS and got him back to work quicker.

Our firm does not pay sick leave and as a result about 6 years ago I needed 5 months off to have an operation and had to save in advance to do this. If this had been a sudden accident or illness I am not sure what I would have done.

I think they developed a conscience after that and as a result of this they have since started a scheme whereby if you need longterm sick leave that will be covered but if you take time off for a cold or bug you are still not covered so the choice then is to either go unpaid or use up a days holidays.

It works in the sense that people are less likely to take the piss but a few years ago there was a flu epidemic and people continued to come into work because they couldn't afford not to, and in the long term the company lost out because more people got sick than should have.

People who don’t get sick pay probably do take less time off, but that’s not a good thing. People should be able to take time off when they’re unwell. It’s a mark of a civilised society that cares for its citizens. It’s not a moral good to ignore illness and push yourself to breaking point.

I'd probably take more off. But keep going even though I'm so stressed. The thought of letting patients down by going sick keeps me going. If I could take some time off or even some extended leave that was non- paid it would be great and guilt free

I work somewhere where half of the workers are employees and the other half are freelancers. Sickness rates amongst the employees are many times those of the freelancers

Discretionary sick pay is a thing. IMO this dissuades anyone thinking of calling in sick who isn’t very very ill.
No doubt the bosses think it’s wonderful. So yes generous sick pay can mean overall higher rates of absence.

My SIL works for the NHS and has rinsed it for every bit of sick pay she can get.

She could tell you to the very date when she can next go off sick again, without being sanctioned, and receiving full pay.

Every time she’s been off sick, she miraculously recovers to return to work just as her sick pay is coming to an end. It’s been a series of astonishing coincidences!

The NHS throws money around like water IMO. I know someone who worked for the NHS, took full sick pay for as long as they could because they had 3 kids and said they were stressed, in reality didn't want to do the job as wanted to be SAHM and then were offered a huge pay out in voluntary redundancy along with a number of other staff. Then the NHS wonders why it never has enough money.

I saw a post on my FB today about why GP's couldn't possibly go back to face to face appointments and everything that was written could apply to supermarkets or schools. The NHS is just becoming more and more unfit for purpose IMO.

bloodywhitecat please contact DWP if you haven’t already.Your Partner will be entitled to benefits.

I think it’s bloody obvious that those who can afford to be off sick, are more likely to do so.

Your rather goady OP is clearly taking that from the angle of, “people go off when they don’t need to” rather than the real problem of “people who need to can’t go off.”

I'm an hourly paid lecturer. I really struggle with my mental health - don't sleep
with anxiety, have been suicidal with depression. I've had no choice but to struggle in and stick on a brave face even when I've not slept all night, struggled to eat a full meal and cry before work, after work, on lunch sobbing and shaking in the toilets. I am brilliant at disguising it when I'm in teaching mode. My students have no idea. I consistently get first rate evaluation feedback.

The thing is, my problem isn't work related. It's to do with CPTSD and a lonely life. Work helps me. I'm good at it, it helps my self worth, I love working with the students. I could easily get a line for 6 months off with "stress" but I think ultimately I'd become more isolated, depressed, lose routine, be a higher suicide risk etc. Lockdown and working from home
has worsened my depression and I've ended up in a rut. So for me having to go into work and not having the option of going offsick longterm isn't a bad thing.

The worry is a physical problem. I'd get no sick pay at all.

The problem with the question is that it suggests that if you would work when you are sick because you won't get paid then the 'paid unwell' who do take time off must be skiving or taking advanatge in some way.

Rather than the alternative, which is that without sick pay, people often work when they should not - putting others at risk in some jobs and putting themselves at risk of getting worse, not better.

The problem isn't that some jobs offer good sick pay. It's that some don't, leaving the employees unsupported and vulnerable.

I think the biggest problem you've identified is the number of people who have to work even when they're not well enough. Who have to chose between their health and paying the bills.

Actually, you also highlight the massive problem we have with conditions of service in NHS. 30% of people aren't piss-takers.

I am self employed.
I’ve spent years pushing myself and going to work when I was unwell.
I got more and more ill instead and now I can only work a few hours a week.

I wouldn’t recommend to ANYONE to push through like I did. It doesn’t work.

@GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing barrister here as well. Was about to say the same thing. Barristers drag themselves in on deaths door as (a) we are self-employed so no work no pay and (b) it means adjournments etc so huge trials can collapse - huge costs involved.

I do a lot of Employers Liability work and again it is massively noticeable how people do take more sick leave when they are fully paid (understandable - I have clients who are injured and have literally dragged themselves to work as otherwise they won’t pay the bills).

The NHS has notoriously high sickness rates (around 5%).

I suffer from chronic insomnia. I never took a day off sick because of it. Now that I am retired, I can sleep when I want. I am left wondering how the hell I managed to do my job at all, yet I used to drag myself in to the office when I was literally falling asleep on my feet.

I did, however take sick leave when I was ill with other things. I've lost count of the number of colleagues who passed on their colds to me, all the while bragging that they never took sick leave.

Yes, I imagine that due to no sick pay, unwell individuals are forced to work instead. That’s not a good thing.

Btw nice bashing of people with MH issues.

Maybe You should Wonder instead why so. many people are off sick. Because you don’t have 30% who are just lazy.
Maybe instead they are struggling because of the culture within the NHS. Or because of the pressure of the last 18~24 months.

I work in social care, we have dealt with outbreaks of covid that included 90% of staff having it at one point.
They were paid ssp and were back to work the day their isolation period ended.

A friend who I went to university with who is a ward manager at the local NHS hospital has had staff off with 'long covid' for months on end.