To think this is a date?

[RunningStrong]

Married man in his mid 50s. Slightly younger widow. They've been friends for about 20 years through a shared sport interest neither spouse wanted to attend.

Planned trip to see an away fixture involves:

• meet early for breakfast
• get train to major city where event is
• morning sightseeing
• watch sport
• play a (different) sport together
• dinner and drinks
• get training back at c. 11pm

It sounds like a great day out. Same sex friends all good, but....?

I wonder if the reasons your 'friends' (they're not friends btw) are being odd with you is they don't trust their husbands rather than they don't trust you.

You haven't done anything wrong and it's appalling that they are abandoning you at the worst time for you.

But anyway, I love sport and I'd exactly enjoy a day out like that. I've a male friend that I have a different interest in common with and I hope he doesn't think that he's in with a chance. Not only do I not think of him that way, I value our friendship, and I hope he doesn't want to risk that as I've definitely not given him any signals that I'm interested.

It's also brought up for me the extent to which we feel we have to manage bloke's behaviour. Why are you so worried about him, he should be responsible for his own behaviour (that's rhetorical, btw). You're not going to make a pass at him, so his wife should have nothing to worry about if she trusts her husband. If she has any fears she could invite you round, rather than you having to fret about it.

Just go, have fun and tell him in no uncertain terms if there's any hint of his thinking his luck's in.

I think the original story sounded suspicious but how you have elaborated it’s clearly innocent friendship. If I was the wife I would understand.

Hmm. To be perfectly honest OP, the type of woman to have an affair with a married man is the type of woman to cheat on her husband to boot. What’s the difference?

If a woman is going to have an affair, she’s going to have one.

I really doubt the female halves of your couple friends feel differently towards you now in that respect. I’m really sorry you feel like that. There probably has been a slight shift in dynamic, but it won’t be that they now see you as some kind of husband bait all of a sudden! I don’t know, maybe you’re finding out these particular ‘couple friendships’ were more driven by the men in the couples, if that makes sense?

For instance, I have girlfriends who I would see regardless of whether I was married or not. But there are other women who, despite the fact I get on really well with them, I don’t really meet them without their husbands because we always tended to get them round as a couple. Often, they are the wives of FH’s friends from way back, etc.

Would you say you have close female friends? Are you the type that calls herself ‘not a woman’s woman?’ That’s not meant to sound judgemental, but there are women in here who refer to themselves like that and they can’t see why it’s problematic, often blaming other the female partners of ‘their boys’ for being ‘insecure’ or whatever

I’m so sorry to hear about your bereavement and I can understand why you are questioning relationships as you never did before. It’s a vulnerable time, obviously.

Can I ask, with this particular sports friend, does he ever talk to you about his wife? “My wife doesn’t understand..., etc etc?” Because that’s when it’s crossing the line. I do believe that most male / female friendships have the potential to become (at least) emotional affairs. I think you have to be honest about that, married or not. Most women (married or not) don’t go off for the day with other people’s husbands and they would feel very uncomfortable doing that. So it is what it is, I’m afraid and whether you are single or married, it will raise suspicion. Sorry, but I wanted to be honest with you because this is not something I would dream of doing, nor any woman I know.

No the female half of the couples were mostly my friends before we became couple friends.

Friend doesn't talk a lot about his wife, when he does it's usually with some pride about something she's achieved or how hard she's finding caring for her elderly mother. All very empathetic.

I think it's really sad that your female friends have had an attitude change. This was not my experience at all when I was widowed. Are you sure it's not in your head?

I also can’t understand why your female friends would have a change of attitude in this scenario. If anything, they should be going out of their way to support you. Their husbands have absolutely nothing to do with it .

Do they think you’re more interested in their husbands than you are in them? Otherwise, I can’t understand it.

Do any of your married female friends hang out with other men (married or otherwise) for days out etc?

This sounds like a pleasant and perfectly appropriate platonic day out with a friend of either sex. Have done similar with male friends, DP has done similar with female friends, no romantic element.

@fiveinfulham

I also can’t understand why your female friends would have a change of attitude in this scenario. If anything, they should be going out of their way to support you. Their husbands have absolutely nothing to do with it .

Do they think you’re more interested in their husbands than you are in them? Otherwise, I can’t understand it.

Do any of your married female friends hang out with other men (married or otherwise) for days out etc?

Yes, it’s pretty depressing to think that the OP’s female friends aren’t thinking ‘X has lost her husband — how can we support her at a horrible time?’ but rather ‘X is now single and available and my DH might start playing footsie with her if I invite her for dinner…’

my experienced exactly the same OP. She ended up with a new group of friends because of it.

I wouldnt worry too much about it, OP. Just try and keep your focus on having a lovely day with your friend as you used to.
If his wife does become more uncomfortable now that you're sadly widowed, then that's her problem. If there is a problem, you probably won't know about it until next time you plan something and he says he can't go for whatever reason.

What i would do is send a gift to the wife. Something like an orchid or a bunch of flowers. ie just a gift because.....

@Tomselleckhaskindeyes

What i would do is send a gift to the wife. Something like an orchid or a bunch of flowers. ie just a gift because.....

Yes, that would work nicely to turn a perfectly normal friendship into weird territory

What I have noticed is that the attitude of the female half of my (our) couple friends has changed since DH died, which has made me wonder about how she might view things too.

I'm sorry some of your friends have revealed themselves to be arseholes. This isn't normal behaviour. How utterly callous and self obsessed of them.

Given your longstanding friendship with this man, I think you need to start from the position that nothing has changed, until you see any evidence otherwise.

@Tomselleckhaskindeyes

What i would do is send a gift to the wife. Something like an orchid or a bunch of flowers. ie just a gift because.....

Oh god that would make things so much weirder!

@Tomselleckhaskindeyes

What i would do is send a gift to the wife. Something like an orchid or a bunch of flowers. ie just a gift because.....

This is a terrible idea. What is the card on the flowers going to say? ‘I’m placating you with these roses, total stranger, in case you imagine I’m thinking of shagging your husband now that I’m widowed’?

OP, why don’t you just ask him what his wife makes of this friendship you have with her husband?

Have you never asked him this in 20 years?

I think he may be playing economical with the truth here, to be honest. He’s probably just said, “there’s a match on and we’re going for dinner afterwards..., “ She has just assumed it’s a blokes thing. Even if she knows there are women in this sports-fan group, the key word is ‘group.’ She probably just thinks the women who go with this group / activity are ‘one if the lads’ types and doesn’t give it a second thought as she knows that’s not her husband’s type (romantically-speaking). For instance, there are a couple of women where my DH boxes, but I know they are not his type. Nor are women who would be interested in rugby or football, to be honest. That’s just him. So it would be interesting to know how she perceives things from her end - after all these years!

@RunningStrong

Oh. Well these responses are exactly what I'm concerned about. The way other women's attitudes have changed towards me.

He's been a good friend and the sport is important to me.

I don't want any trouble, is the point of the thread.

It certainly sounds as if you want it to be a date. If you are sincere about not wanting any trouble, don't go. If you think it sounds like a date, his wife probably does too. I'm not the least bit surprised that her attitude towards you has changed.

Did you go out alone with this man when your husband was alive? If not, I would suggest the dynamic of your relationship has made a dangerous shift and is not likely to end happily.

If it was him asking for advice and he loves and respects his wife, I would definitely tell him not to go.

OP I understand where you're coming from, when my mum separated from my dad she felt she was regarded differently by women and was quite self conscious being around men and people making assumptions, she certainly doesn't have a "high opinion of herself" quite the opposite though I wish she did.

Do what you're comfortable with, you've been friends a long time, there's no reason a day like that can't be strictly platonic, if he gives off other vibes you know to distance yourself, for your sake, not anybody else's.

Im so sorry for your loss.

To be fair though in all honesty, anyone who is ‘quite self-conscious about being around men and people making assumptions,’ wouldn’t go off for breakfast, lunch and dinner drinks with a married man! . When all is said and fine, there is simply no need to do this. It’s totally irrelevant whether OP is single or not. Of course this type of thing will make people wonder. You can’t really hang out (individually) with other people’s husbands and then feign shock at how other people are likely to perceive this . It’s nothing personal to the OP. It’s simply because the vast majority of women and men wouldn’t put themselves in that position in the first place.

My personal opinion of you wouldn’t have changed just because you were widowed (sorry for your loss by the way ) but clearly others think it makes it odd.

I understand why you’re asking but I think there is no clear cut answer.

His wife hasn’t been interested enough to want to meet you in 20 years, I would hope that she’s secure enough in her relationship to still not be interested (in the nicest possible way of course!).

@fiveinfulham he's not some random bloke or new acquaintance though, they've been friends for over 20 years.

@fiveinfulham

To be fair though in all honesty, anyone who is ‘quite self-conscious about being around men and people making assumptions,’ wouldn’t go off for breakfast, lunch and dinner drinks with a married man! . When all is said and fine, there is simply no need to do this. It’s totally irrelevant whether OP is single or not. Of course this type of thing will make people wonder. You can’t really hang out (individually) with other people’s husbands and then feign shock at how other people are likely to perceive this . It’s nothing personal to the OP. It’s simply because the vast majority of women and men wouldn’t put themselves in that position in the first place.

Well, there’s no ‘need’ to go to any sports event, there’s no ‘need’ to leave the house, there’s no ‘need’ to have a social life. Maybe the OP could just stay in for the rest of her life and get her groceries delivered.

Incidentally, I don’t know where you got the idea that women are somehow not allowed to ‘hang out (individually) with other people’s husbands’ — I can assure you it’s entirely normal for most people. You must have a weirdly lurid take on friendships.

I’ve no idea if it’s a ‘lurid’ take, I’m just being honest. I wouldn’t dream of going for lunch, let alone a whole day, with a friend’s husband, or someone I’d met through work. I would be under no delusions about the impression that would give off. I genuinely don’t see how it can work.

When I was about 26, there was a man I worked with. We were in a group of about 10 and we got into a habit socialising a fair bit. It was good fun. I was in a relationship, so was he - well, what could possibly go wrong? Well quite a lot, as it (almost) happened. Every time I have tried to have a make friendships it has been more hassle than it’s worth, frankly. Maybe it’s just me (but I don’t think it is).

I must have met hundreds of men when I was working. Sure there would be group drinks and all that kind of thing. Perhaps I’d go to lunch if it was purely business. But I wouldn’t be going off with them for the day! I’d wonder what on earth the wife would think of me and I would never put another woman in that position. I’d be mortified, to be honest.

I must have about 50 female friends and I genuinely don’t know anyone who would do this. Being married or not has nothing to do with it. He’s married, that’s all I need to know.

When I was about 26, there was a man I worked with. We were in a group of about 10 and we got into a habit socialising a fair bit. It was good fun. I was in a relationship, so was he - well, what could possibly go wrong? Well quite a lot, as it (almost) happened. Every time I have tried to have a make friendships it has been more hassle than it’s worth, frankly. Maybe it’s just me (but I don’t think it is).

I must have met hundreds of men when I was working. Sure there would be group drinks and all that kind of thing. Perhaps I’d go to lunch if it was purely business. But I wouldn’t be going off with them for the day! I’d wonder what on earth the wife would think of me and I would never put another woman in that position. I’d be mortified, to be honest.

Have you known these hundreds of men for 20 years though?

What I’m saying with, I wouldn’t get into thst type of relationship with a married work colleague in the first place, let alone one thst would persist for 20 years. The only way that would happen is if he met my husband and they hit it off and also met his wife and we all became friends. I would not want or need to be friends with him independently of his wife. Why would I?