to think there is an inverse relationship between how little money people have and how much they are willing to spend on presents for their children

[Twiglett]

am truly gobsmacked at some of the things that people I know are buying for their children

truly and utterly, spoilt bastard, gobsmacked

why spend that much money? why?

Jingle - a true statement also! I'm sure what Xenia means is the Polish people that she knows are brilliant, clever, hard working, religious and well educated!

Pk616 you have to lol out sometimes.

CALMummy - I agree with you there, I also think it should be every parents choice to stay home and raise their children rather than be forced to palm their children off into the arms of strangers.

Oh jingle, This thread has had me doing full belly wobbling, santa ho hoing, laughs at various points!

Workfare does not normally require those who rightly claim disability benefits (wrong claims for incapacity benefit however are one of the Government's biggest headaches at the moment) although there must be plenty of job some people with disabilities can do from home. For example I get someone to put my newsletters in envelopes. Lots of people could do that and I could then get it done free of charge by people doing it in return for getting state benefits. It also then makes people feel more useful too and if you earn a benefit you tend to appreciate it more.

wow a job for dd when she grows up........oh forgot she has very poor hand control.

I'm not saying all disabilities are so minor that people can't work but there are certainly things people can do from home either just be speaking or just typing or whatever. It always makes people feel better if they have some sort of job too and in states where there is workfare they do find it helps ease people back into proper jobs too.

So I could get my £54 a week plus self esteem for putting some newsletters in envelopes! now that deserves a festive giggle!
I once had a job in a mailing house where I got paid £12k a year for doing the same job!

So my friend with a university degree could put things into envelopes because through no fault of his own he can't get a job? I'm sure his self esteem will go sky high.
Maybe my dd could do it apart from the fact she cant talk and has no hand function.

Or maybe emploeryers should employ disabled people if they have the right qualifications.
What about elderly people on benefits? In the US they let them starve...

Well if we're going to start doing everything like they do it in America why don't we knock the NHS on the head and go private so those who can't afford health insurance don't get health care!
Workfare has it's merits but I don't think it should be a willynilly affair and I don't think you should only get the same rate of pay as you would on benefits. Nor do I think the state should have to pay all the people on the scheme. If an employer wants someone to stuff leaflets into envelopes they should be able to call on the state to provide them with a suitable employee the new employee is then taken off their benefit and the employer should pay them an acceptable wage for the job.
I also believe that workfare should only be inflicted on those claiming JSA not other benefits, such as disibility allowences as these are claimed under different circumstances.

trouble is it still wouldn't solve the problem. ok you take people of JSA and put them to work in crap jobs. but who decides when. take dh he is on JSA but after christmas something will turn up. don't know when but it will. if he was made to do some silly scheme how can he be out there looking for a proper job for proper money?
maybe if it was after 6 months ok but still says cheap labour to me.
so whilst the "new" people are taking the "good" jobs the "old people are made to work for peanuts.

as for you getting a job done "free of charge" whilst the govement pays them benefits. well talk about double standards.

It's not free of charge because we pay huge huge amounts of tax, much more than people on £13k a year. And it's so high in part because of a lot of people wrongly claiming incapacity benefit although we have nothing like the unemployment rates we had in the days of posters saying "Labour isn't working" etc.

Anyway there are no UK plans for workfare, just compulsory interviews if your children are over 5 or 12 or whatever it is.

but you said "free of charge" not me

there's an auumption there that poeple on JSa have never paid huge amounts of tax.... Dh used to earn double what he does now, before his first bout of depression. Peoples lives can vary a lot.

Surely- if people can get free labout through this sort of scheme that rather demotivates them to pay anyone to do the job? So all the people who DO work for a minimum wage (and thee's plenty)- well surey those jobs won't be so common, thereby pushing peole onto JSA and into a cycle fo same job they would have done but less money (and theereby reliant on HB etc more than before)

I know that there are some benefits claimants whoa re organsied by a job centre to maintain the grounds of a charity I use, not sure how that works.

Look, I really hate to tell you all this, but some kind of 'workfare' already exists in the UK. Worktrial - you can ask an employer to take you on for a few weeks (they have to be serious about it or you can report them) while you still claim benefits. If they like you, you get a permanent job. Unsurprisingly I have never heard of anyone getting a job this way.

When you are claiming Jobseekers Allowance, (in our area, anyway) you also are on a system according to your age where you do something like...you are seeking work unaided for a set length of time, then you do intensive 'Jobsearch' for a few hours/days per week (usually in a noisy building full of rough types, alcoholics and drug addicts), then you go on a 'Work Placement' for a number of months, before being ignored again for a few more months.

Work Placement is a scheme where employers/organizations (as DH put it "make you do more work than they do themselves and take the pish") take you on for 30 hours a week to get 'work experience'. You get benefits paid same amount as usual I think. Some age groups get £15 extra.

DH always enjoys them actually. The only bad thing is that he doesn't want to stop!

Anyway, now that we've all had time to calm down what was the original question? Ah yes...

Am I being unreasonable to think there is an inverse relationship between how little money people have and how much they are willing to spend on presents for their children?

This question doesn't mention benefits, migrant workers, mortgages etc, so we don't need to upset each other discussing those issues!

My answer to the OP is this...

Yes you are being unreasonable because...

1. the money people have is theirs and noone elses

1. the children involved are theirs and noone elses

1. what people do with their money is none of your business.

Having said this, it is worrying to see that a religious festival (whether you look at it's christian roots or it's earlier pagan roots as the traditions of the two have become intermingled) where gifts were not really given before the Victorian era (and even then the gifts were only trinkets and tokens) has been turned on it's head to the point where the religious aspect has little bearing, a saint is glorified over and above the Son of God who's birth the festival is supposed to be in honour of, and where the small tokens of affection (that doubled as symbolic of the gifts the wisemen gave to Jesus) that used to be exchanged have mutated into an unneccessary and somewhat vulgar mound of gifts, most of which nobody needs or wants!

But, as I said, still nobody's business but the person who is doing the buying and giving and who could insult someone who wishes to give a gift to another person anyway? (and if we delve back into religion, it is said to be holier to give all that you have even though it may be less than a rich man has to spare!)