to think there is an inverse relationship between how little money people have and how much they are willing to spend on presents for their children

[Twiglett]

am truly gobsmacked at some of the things that people I know are buying for their children

truly and utterly, spoilt bastard, gobsmacked

why spend that much money? why?

I am (as I speak) fashioning a sign that says
'Santa, don't stop here. We don't need your plastic tat fashioned by serfs in Asian sweatshops.'

Just wanted to say for the record that I love Christmas and I want DS to love it as well. It's started well with managing to find a lovely, non-chocolate based advent calendar to open with him every morning, and his face just lights up. I truly believe that simple, relatively inexpensive things can bring just as much happiness, and I don't think I'm being naive.

I'm far from being a scrooge and I would never ever begrudge DS something he really wanted, finances permitting. Hopefully, though, he will not grow up thinking he has to have the latest everything - I certainly never did and it didn't do me any harm. Far from it - Christmas days are amongst the happiest memories of my childhood.

So now I've said my piece and I'll go and get on with the work I'm supposed to be doing.

haven't read the whole thread, but someone commented way back that it seems to be people on small incomes who spend the most on, not just toys and presents, but cigarettes, take aways, etc. Obviously this is a sweeping statement and doesn't apply to everyone in that situation, but I suspect that it may be partly down to people on low incomes not having budgeting skills, and also conspicuous spending to save face, which I think somebody else said. Could it also be misplaced guilt? 'I can't afford to send my kids to a posh school or take them to Canada skiing, but I can and will buy them expensive trainers/baby Eienstein/Playstations?

Also, it may just be a cultural thing. In some subcultures with lower incomes, it is, I think, the culture to have expensive electronic type toys, whereas middle class MN culture has a culture of buying wooden, earthy, educational toys, and many of us (including me ) take some pride in NOT having a lot of plastic toys, and in forcing our kids to play with egg cartons and pine cones and the like!

And as someone else also pointed out, there are plenty of rich people who spend silly money on Chrissy presents as well.

I've come back to say to Spokette, I think I was a liddle bit rude in terms of how I put my point across. [Shuffles feet]...so erm, sorry about that

I've also skipped the majority of this thread, hey there are 23 pages!

My intertpretation of the OP is "why do people who have little spare cash, spend a disproportionatly large amount on their children at christmas?"

I have found that people who have little to spare tend to know they don't have much and they also know that birthday presents and christmas presents will need to be bought throughout the year.

A big emphasis seems to be put on Christmas because it happens at the same time of year for everyone and with the big build up of merchandising, lights, decorations, letters for Santa, advent calendars etc, there is a lot of pressure put on people, parents or not, to try their best to keep Christmas exciting and 'magical' for those around them. This encompases providing a feast fit for a king, bedecking a tree with lights and decorations, sending cards to everyone you've ever met (also a good oportunity for keeping lines of communication open between estranged family members etc) and giving gifts.

If you are on a tight budget, regardless of social standing and the number of satelite dishes you have, you would most likely start saving for next christmas as soon as this christmas is past. If you are careful and squirrel away a little bit here and there and pick up bargains from every sale that passes over eleven and a half months you can provide the 'magical' christmas everybody hopes for. If you then choose to prioritise your spending towards your childrens gifts you can buy astonishingly expensive presents and/or vast amounts of small presents for your darling children to spend hours opening on christmas day (and if you're really cleaver about it you can make it take all day!) and you, as their loving parent, get to enjoy watching their little faces light up in the process, therefore experiencing more of that christmas 'magic' for yourself.

IMO this has nothing to do with saving face, feelings of guilt, etc. It's about a parents desire to make their children happy.

This also doesn't necessarily mean that these children are spoilt. They probably get NOTHING the rest of the year and many don't expect anything!(although this doesn't mean they won't ask!). It is when a child always (or usually) gets what they want with no regard to cost (financial or otherwise) that a child is spoilt not when they are showered with gifts once a year!

we never got expense pressies when i was a kid and never got what i'd asked for...

: (

my kids don't get expensive pressies (riding crop £12, magnetci sketch tingy £10, lego star wars £24), but it's what i know they'd really like!!

: )

at the harrods croquet set!!

www.harrods.com/HarrodsStore/Product/ProductList.aspx?Breadcrumb=toys/toysoutdoor

Lots of good points above. If children get gifts or things bought for them throughout the yea as I suppose ours do there's less need to spend a lot at Christmas but then I'm taking 5 children skiing to a nice hotel so you'd get a good lot of electronic stuff for that. It's no different. Also the wii the 3 sons shared for last Christmas had given them loads of pleasure over the last 12 months. Don't knock the Nintendo wii by any means.. they even took it on last year's skiing holiday! Took ages at customs as it was in hand luggage. Amusing the teenage boy in the queue ahead of us also had his new wii in his hand luggage too.

I would like to post, I really would, but I am far to polite too.

ROFL at Moondog's fuck off to santa message.

I would love to whittle one out of sustainable wood and put it in the window, but hthe woman opposite might think I'm having a dig at her (she's got a santa stop here sign in the window).

I just re-read my post from yesterday and realised how judgey it sounded. It wasn't meant to be - I was trying to say there could be many factors to this trend, and that some factors might be beyond the control of the parents in question, and that others might just be purely cultural, rather than being right/wrong.

I was brought up to respect money, my parents wernt particulaly well off, and I never got presents throughout the year, however, at xmas, I got loads, and I mean loads! But i wasnt a spoilt child, i was very pleaseant, and never expected ANY presents, nor asked for any! But now im older, me and dp own our house, we have a new car and everything we could ever want. We ARE in debt, but still do just about ok for money. This year, just like the last 3 years, I will be absolutely showering my ds with presents. Also he will be 3 on the 23rd December, so more bday presents. It isnt a statement to show off to people, or to buy my sons love, i have one of the most loving children anybody has ever met, who tells me he loves me every ten minutes.
If we cant spoil him when hes a toddler, a young child, then when can we??? When hes grown up with a wife and children? I doubt it.
I never want him to look at other chidrens things and wish he had them, because it hurts!
Just because we spend lots of money on him, it doesnt mean he will be a spoilt brat. I always wished I had the 'in' trainers or bag or shoes at school, and I never got them, and I have to say it (amongst other things) killed my confidence, because,children are cruel!
Why cant we just accept that what people spend on their children is really nobody elses business, and we can all spend what we feel to be acceptable, without being judged by everyone else?

Lol @ Casbie...

'my kids don't get expensive pressies (riding crop £12, magnetci sketch tingy £10, lego star wars £24), but it's what i know they'd really like!!'

So, you spent a small amount this Christmas - what does your DC use the riding crop on? A hobby horse? Because if it's a real horse or pony, then surely you're paying out for it right through the year!
As for Lego Star Wars...do you perhaps mean for the DS (costing around £100 to have bought in the first place)?

Not that I particularly care, but I thought it was an amusing comment.

"Santa Stop Here" signs make me go UGH.

I think there is something about this time of year which makes hard-working people stop and say "WTF?"

As your children get older and demand more and more ridiculous tat which you have to tell them they can't have, Christmas becomes less and less "magical" and more and more of a fecking pain in the arse.

It just seems like an additional expense you can well do without, especially for freelancers who have a tax bill coming up in January.

And you look around and see people who don't seem to do a stroke of work buying plasma TVs and getting mobile phones and robot animals for their kids, and having two holidays a year. It's no wonder we get disillusioned.

Nobody is saying people on low incomes should live in caves and drink their own urine. But in a fair society, benefits should provide the basics of living - it's work which should provide the comforts. Otherwise, how else are people who can work but don't going to be encouraged to do so?

There are times over the last couple of years when DW and I have asked "why the hell do we BOTHER?" Especially when one or other of us has had to get up at 6.30am in the dark and the driving rain. Sometimes we've asked ourselves if we'd be better off staying at home and screwing the State for every penny we can get. At the moment, it seems most of what we earn is vanishing into a black hole and we are working for precisely nothing.

I can't wait for the Christmas madness to be over. At the moment it just seems like endless emotionally-blackmailing, wallet-screwing, tacky, superficial, soul-destroying crap.

And yes, before you ask, I AM having a bad day.

(I note you can't do a "festive" version of that litle face.)

Unquiet, have you been reading the Daily Mail? That post doesn't sound like you at all. Of course, if you want to join the unemployed and fund Christmas by pledging your knee cap as security to a loan shark, you are free to do so...

I'm not sure I agree with everything you've written UnquietDad but the phrase "I can't wait for the Christmas madness to be over. At the moment it just seems like endless emotionally-blackmailing, wallet-screwing, tacky, superficial, soul-destroying crap" could have come straight out of my own mouth !

And I'm not having a bad day ..... I feel like this re: Xmas more and more, particularly regarding emotional bloody blackmail (and I'm not talking kids here).

Yours sincerely,

Cats(humbag)mother.

Oh WTF? Only people scamming the system or borrowing heavily can afford all the things you are saying, UnquietDad. Same old argument from a poster I did respect. Stop tarring all benefit recipients with the same brush, will you

I spent a small part of this afternoon in M&S - what was I thinking? I went for some dark green tights for my DD to wear with her kilt (lovely kilt was a recent ebay purchase for 99p pick up free as local) to a party tomorrow. The woman ahead of me in the long queue for the till said to her friend 'I am spending £150 each on them', then some totting up. 'Oh no, one lot adds up to £155 and the other one only adds up to £137.50 - run and get some knickers to make it up to the same.' And her friend went off to find knickers.
It summed up everything I dislike about Christmas.

There must be an awful lot of people scamming the system and/or borrowing heavily, then.

Just in answer to the quote 'all kids are consumers' - ds1 was asked by the headmaster at his school this week what he wanted for Christmas (he's 6 btw) - he said that he thought very hard, and then said that what he really wanted, more than anything else, was a new packet of felt tip pens. I've posted this elsewhere, but I was very chuffed with him!

You know, I think kids are under as much pressure as anyone at Christmas. It's like they're expected to want something really expensive - what if they really don't though? Will they seem ungrateful? Will they end up with nothing? I don't think I'd like to be a child again these days.

I'm just really pissed off at the moment so I am sure my judgement is flawed. But I am not tarring anyone with the same brush, as I made clear. Let me just reiterate, it is good that we have a welfare system in this country and when it does what it is supposed to it is a Very Good Thing. Maybe if I come back to this after Christmas Hell is over (and after I have paid my tax bill - oh, look, another thumping great wad of cash for the working to hand over) I will be in a better frame of mind to discuss this impartially.

unquietdad I have a question for you.
what about some one who works bloody hard to support his family.(bloody hard) and due to no fault of his own ends up umemployed. he spends hours everyday searching for work. but no luck. but as he has worked during the year and he and his dw have saved. they buy their dc's nice pressies.(not 7yearolds. oldest 15) do you begrudge them this.
Because not all people on benefits choose to be. some have reasons for it. it is easy IMO to say oh I work hard so should they. a lot of people would love to work but for reasons beyond their control. they are not able to.

oh I empathise, jinglebells, I do. Someone like that should be equally angry about the way some people work the system.