to think there is an inverse relationship between how little money people have and how much they are willing to spend on presents for their children

[Twiglett]

am truly gobsmacked at some of the things that people I know are buying for their children

truly and utterly, spoilt bastard, gobsmacked

why spend that much money? why?

i Wish they could show me how.
i don't think people realise how shit the money you get on beneits are. and add to that the pure boredom of not working.

UQD I am genuinely interested in how these people you describe actually get to stay on benefits & have this stuff. It really isn't a lot a week (I did claim it once & they made it so bloody hard to get £25 or something a week, it was unreal). I did once have a boyfriend who claimed to be a drug addict & he got rather more, so maybe that's the kind of trick you need??

I am so with all the scrooges. Christmas sucks. It is a big, shiny, hollow, plasticky, Chinese child-labour exploiting con.

And I don't know how to stop my sappy (very middle class) dh spending a ridiculous fortune on another pile of plasticky tat which will end up in bin bags by the time the next consumerfest comes along....

I definitely think it's down to people living off very expensive credit. I reckon you'd be hard pushed to get a TV at one of those credit places which isn't a large plasma screen one, for example. There are so many people being exploited by these charlatans it makes me quite angry.

Well, aren't we bloody miserable. Heres a tip for you...

IF YOU DON'T LIKE CHRISTMAS, YOU DON'T HAVE TO TAKE PART!

As for UQD, Tax bill coming up, didn't you know it was coming! couldn't you budget towards it so it's not one big lump sum? You know like loads of people do through out the year so they can afford to splurge ONCE a year on the massive consumer feastival that comes towards the end of December!

And all the bashing of those living off the state going on here is disgusting. Yes loads of people choose not to work and loads of people claim benefits AND work on the sly pleanty more, like me, are unable to get work, not for want of trying for nearly 30 months, and can't get and bleeding benefits because their DP's earn £11k a year! How do you think we pay our rent, council tax, utilities and have money left to put food in our mouths? I'll tell you, the heating is off most if the time, we sit around in half light until it's way too dark to see anything and we have to eat a lot of pasta and potatoes.

Do you think that the judgemental rubbish that is being batted around on this thread doesn't make my blood boil? Do you know just how twisted with anger I am that the likes of you, with your misery, spite and predudice, get to have jobs when I don't? And no I'm not some brainless chav with a criminal record and an attitude problem. I'm a well raised, HIGHLY intelligent, honest individual. I just can't get work because I'm TOO intelligent, but I don't have a degree.

I hope all of you miserable self centred scrooges get just what you DESERVE this christmas...

NOTHING!

Here here PK616.
And a big fat raspberry to Unquiet Dad.

Well, UQD, yes there are alot of people scamming/working on the side. I would say more than half of claimants on JSA.

I am not one of them, but I think you will agree that I am a scrounging bum, because DH and I refuse to work all hours in boring soul destroying jobs just to get the same (or less) money than we would on benefits. Why? Why would you wish that on anyone? If you are genuinely struggling so much, why the hell are you doing the work you do? It evidently makes you jealous of those who (presumably - or you surely would not be working) have less income, but also struggle less.

Oh, and you could ask why we don't get some qualifications so we can get a well paid job. The answer is that you get your benefits stopped if you are not actively looking for work (which we are - but work where one income can support us). This means you can't go to college 'full-time', and one of us needs to be home to look after the kids.

Also I agree with pk616 - our heating is also off most of the time. And it is boring but at least we have our kids.

The thing about "boring soul-destroying jobs" is that an awful lot of people do them (the idea that you actually have to enjoy work is a very recent one), because they are a way into something else. Even a low-paid job is, in the long term, better than taking benefits. It's easier to get a job if you have a job.

Why the hell am I doing the work I do? I am a freelancer and so my income fluctuates. It's all very well to lecture me about budgeting, but it would be nice if the people who owed me money actually paid it on time for once without my having to chase it. Then perhaps my theoretical budgets would actually work out.

There is absolutely no reason for Christmas to be a "massive consumer festival" and I resent the idea that it has to be. Some of us have to make a stand against this, unpopular as it is. Not liking what Christmas has become does not mean that you should be told "not to take part".

I think a lot of people are getting hot under the collar as a result of what I've said, maybe as there are some uncomfortable truths contained within it.

well said to Pk616 & nickernacker
dh has 33 years in a trade, but as he can't drive(health reasons) finding a job is bloody hard. also add the fact that he can't work every hour god sends as we have a severly disabled child. (even my db who makes daily mail readers sound logical. can see the problem.) add to thet the fact when he looks for work and goes round sites he can't even leave his card as they are either empty(due to the weather) or he can't find anyone who speaks english.
I knew after the thread in the news that this kind of thread would happen.

also it is easy when your dc's are small to say oh i only spend £50 on them bit different when one has sn(instantly harder to find cheap stuff) and one is nearly 16. the days of plastic tat are over.

I agree with UQD that Xmas is one big consumer fest but not too happy with tarring all benefit recipeints with the same brush. My kids are getting no presents this year. We've explained why. DD had to give up his job to help me care for dd who is severely disabled. I am disabled but couldn't get any help from ss (oddly enough, iff dd hadn't been disabled they would have helped me take care of a non-disabled child) but they refuse to help with a disabled one.
So DH, who has a PhD and worked for 20 years in a badly paid but interesting science reserach job is now being a carer. And because he 'gave up' work we don't get benefits or help with the mortgage.
So, no plasma screens for us or designer clothes because benefits (and the lack of them) just don't stretch like that and we wont get anything on credit because that way debt lies.
To get dd's equipment we have to beg to charities and fill in intrusive forms just so she can have a special needs chair or a wheelchair or therapy. Dunno why we paid taxes for 20 years.

And No NMC i'm still not buying you that Plasma screen- just glad the boys didn't wreck teh TV yesterday

We've got an income- we're lucky. Dh is up for disciplinary next week because he can't take random on call work (because it throwws the boys too much and being PG I can't restrain ds1 who is bigger and strong now as I used to). We don't think he'll get the sack but he'll probably get a warning. And yes, some of our income goes on 'spoiling' the kids. DS2 puts up with so much- being injured by ds1, living with 2 asd kids etc etc and he's such an Angel. He doesn't have friends round because nobody will dcome any mroe becuase of ds1's behaviours if someone invades his territory; he often misses school events becuase of trips to BIBIC and hospital visits often clash with school plays. So they'll get spoiled. But that doesn't mean they're only getting the commercial side- we (DS1 and I) just got back from Church, they get a good balance.

Oh and I don't beleive in sul destroying jobs; have ahd a few in myt ime that would be clased as such but there's something very Soul strengthening about going out each day and contributing, regardless of what tou do- just ask 2shoes, NMC- people who can't work because of what life has thrown at them.

2shoes my dad sued to have a building company until his partner buggered off with all the profits (including 10K owed to customs....grr... and this was just before I was born so s small fortune!), as Dad can't drive either he also lost the ability to work in the trade. It's a complete bugger isn't it?

oh I can't be bothered to moralise, it's none of my business. And why on earth use the word "bastard" in the OP. Charming.

Unquiet dad, what you said didn't make me feel uncomfortable, it didn't strike a nerve, but I do think it shows you for what you are, a pompus prig.
I have had a mortgage since I was 19, dh and I have always worked. Our wages haven't really increased in the last 3 years, and what was once quiet an affluent household, is now a struggling one, thats what happens when bills increase and wages don't. We budget why don't you.
Every week x goes into a seperate account to cover the bills and mortgage and xmas, you should try that.

ooh the season of goodwill has definitely arrived! surely we all do what we think is right in terms of work, christmas, presents, etc. There are some really painful posts on here (on both sides of the debate). I'm a single mum, I work, and I'll spend what I want to - not excessively btw. (And then I'll pay my tax in Jan!!!!!).

am off to decorate my tree because I'm looking forward to the fairy lights

lojomamma - I'm afraid your post sounds a lot more pompous and priggish than mine. You think we don't budget?

YOU implied that you couldn't do christmas because you had to save for the tax man and resented those who are unemployed.
I appreciate that if you are self employed some months you will have a bigger income than others,
BUT
YOU choose to be self employed,
YOU choose not to be in a soul destorying job, therefore
YOU should choose to budget better so your children have christmas presents not just the tax man.

and if that doesn't work, YOU should get a job and not be self employed, then maybe YOU wouldn't be so jealous of others.

I don't appreciate being told what to do. I was pointing out that the tax bill comes straight after Christmas which makes things worse.

The problem is not the job I do or the job anyone else does. The problem is a) people taking the piss and abusing the system, which means there is less for those in genuine need and b) Christmas having become such a rank consumer-fest, and people who have vaild objections to this being told "fuck off and don't do Christmas then."

I have just read your profle. You live in the North where house prices are cheeper, you wife is a full time Teacher, and you free lance. You should not have the money problems us mere working class people have. I hadn't realised any of this whilst reading your posts before.
You must have some Very Expensive out going's/habits not to be able to buy your kids much for Christmas.
DH is a manual laborer and I work on a checkout. We have a 70 grand mortgage. If we can just about manage, you should be able to piss it. Stop whining, you are in a far better position than others.

this is going to sound a bit dense....but I don't know anything about self-employment and tax. How come its not taken every month like when you work for an employer? When dh worked we just got the net pay and tax and NI had removed a large chunk already.
How does tax work with the self employed. Scuse thread hijack but I was just curious.

I do agree with UQD that tax in January is the worst, particularly if people don't cough up (I am also self-employed) BUT (a Pollyanna moment coming up - sorry!) compared to many in the world we are lucky, aren't we?

Incidentally, I don't believe that if fewer people scammed the system the rest would be better off - the money would be deployed elsewhere imo. That doesn't mean to say at all that I condone it.

We live in the North, but not a particularly cheap part of the city. My DW has just changed jobs because of stress and took a pay cut in order to do so. We don't have expensive outgoings or habits, unless you count the mortgage. We are putting quite a bit away into ISAs and so on for the children's future, which I suppose is terribly middle-class.

Maybe we should get Alvin Hall in...

But this isn't about me. And I agree with toothfairy, one can be Pollyanna and see it that way! Twiglett's OP, as people have pointed out, wasn't about benefits at all but about people on low income. Different thing.

just to answer needmorecoffee's question - some is taken at source, e.g. for bits of the teaching I do, but for most you need to declare it on a self-employed tax return for the tax year, done before the end of the (calendar) year. So, e.g. by the end of Dec 07 you work out your tax for financial year Apr 06 to March 07. They then work out your bill and send it at the start of the next calendar year.

It's odd, but sometimes I can say something on here which I think is going to be a bit contentious but I'll just get a dozen people agreeing. And sometimes I say something which I think is reasonable and find myself isolated. I stand by what I've said, even though I admit I could have couched it in more emollient terms.

Haven't read the rest of the posts but I probably spend about £50-70 on my dd at Christmas but I spread the cost throughout the year - I buy her clothes in the sales and batch them away for gifts which kills two birds with the proverbial stone for me. I get to dress her in things I approve of and it makes another parcel under the tree. I often buy her good-quality toys from Christmas bazaars and so on - I picked up a Barbie mobile home for £4 the other day. Should go nicely with her High School Musical dance mat (new from Tescos) .

The self employed pay their tax twice a year in January and July. That's all. And you pay on what you bill people, not what you have been paid usually.

The pk poverty above - husband on £11k, wife cannot get a job - does it depend where you live? I know so many people who come to London from abroad and get jobs right away. I was in London on Friday and saw shops with signs in them pleading for seasonal staff. Perhaps some areas of the country just don't have work available and others do.

Xenia - really? it doesn't work like that for me. maybe it depends what line you are in. I have to declare all my receipts. I add everything up for the previous tax year and declare it in December, and pay once.