to think there is an inverse relationship between how little money people have and how much they are willing to spend on presents for their children

[Twiglett]

am truly gobsmacked at some of the things that people I know are buying for their children

truly and utterly, spoilt bastard, gobsmacked

why spend that much money? why?

Yes, this is what every self employed person I've ever known pays - twice a year...
HMRC:
"How and when do I pay my tax?

You will need to pay any tax due by 31 January after the end of the tax year covered by the return.

You may also have to make two payments on account for the tax year before the return for that year is due.

Payments on account will be made on:

• 31 January in the tax year and
• 31 July after the end of the tax year (six months later)."

Oh.
That's odd.
I've only ever been billed in January.

I wouldn't worry about it. Most self employed people get a bill in Jan and another in July. You pay half during the tax year and the other half 3 months after it is over - until it's over you don't know what you will have earned in that year with provisions so that if your income is less than expected for refunds etc.

UQD you have my sympathies over the tax bill. we had years of this (sure it was just once a year in April)

Xenia - The employment issue does depend somewhat on where you live. We live in Birmingham. Many of the industries here are run by Asians who will only employ asians/members of the same religious groups, we have recently had a large influx of Polish workers who employers see as a good bet (they have a reputation for being hard workers where as us poor brits have the reputation of being slackers and layabouts - somewhat justified on the whole!). The only remaining jobs are for student workers (part-time/very odd hours/seasonal) or those holding a degree, preferably a masters! Basically nobody is interested in employing a white, British, agnostic 27 year old woman with dyslexia and a high IQ even though I'd sweep the streets for the sake of a wage and satisfy my creative and intellectual needs in my own time!

I wouldn't want to try and live in London with what wages are on offer. DH was offered 25K for a science post. More than we get here but can you imagine trying to find a 3-4 bedroomed house in or near London?!

No I cant imagine affording ondon prices or coping with the cost of living there. I think differences really hit us when we moved here- only from 60 miles away- we spend the same on a house as here as there; there we had an ex council house just off an A road opposite a palce for storing nuclear cannisters and by a well known smelly factory (now closed). Here we have a lovely old cottage on a quiet 1-way street with a safe garden and a top notch school ratings wise. Fortunately DH worked in between the two places so apart from tolls no difference there.

Apply in the name of Anna Kaczynski saying you are 27, newly from Poland and no ties/children and also in your own name. Then if they reject you recover some damages for race discrimination may be?

Or what about computer cleaning? We know someone who goes into offices (now employs a lot of people) has contracts with businesses and they clean the computers at night, shake the keyboards etc. My sister did it for a bit too. She also put up ads for house cleaning in newsagents and got some work that way but there's probably more demand in London. What about exam paper marking? I marked A level papers once but the dyslexia may be too bad for that.

UQD. Unfortunately I do feel guilty. I feel bad that other people are paying my way in the world, and I feel bad that so many people have shitty lives because of the employment system in this country.

I feel bad that parents have to leave their children with strangers (as you cannot know what they are doing to your children, or what they are teaching them/how they are disciplining them (or not) while you aren't there).

I feel bad that parents are forced to work such long hours that they hardly see their kids, or their marriage/partnership suffers through lack of quality time together.

It makes me sick that decent, hardworking people do not get the same help with housing, tax, prescriptions, optical care, dentistry, school meals, no-interest loans from Social Security (where they take the payments straight out of your benefit - not that I have ever used this, but it's there) that unemployed people do.

DH applies for several jobs every week....for work in shops, warehouses, parks, etc. But not factory work because of the hours. He has never been accepted for an interview yet. Apparently there are hundreds of people after every job. I wonder why so many people are out of work and seem not to want it. Do you get it yet?

havent read all this thread but I have a group of friends and it isnt the poorest that spend the most it is the ones that were the poorest as children who spend the most. This i think is the key.
I was given loads as a child because my parents were poor when they were younger so I was spoilt and now it has gone full circle and I dont give me dd much as I dont think it is neccesary. I dont think kids need all this stufff and surely every year you just have to raise the bar and buy more..And dont get me started on people selling their souls for a NIntendo WII. Will the children evaporate on xmas morning if they dont get one!!

Why does anybody think it is ANYTHING to do with anybody else, how much OTHER families are spending on their children? Why not just concentrate on your own Christmas, and your own children? I refer to my previous post on pg 23.
UQD; your comments about people on benefits are quite astonishing and very old fashioned and ridiculous.
The welfare state here is a godsend, and without it, many families and children would be living in poverty. Yes people scrounge, and yes its disgusting, but show me a country with any kind of public service that has NO faults. There isnt one.
And thie total and blatent tar-ing of the same brush of all people on benefits is just down right cruel and unjustified. I was on benefits for two years because the father of my son ran off. I had 3 A-levels, and I am a trained veterinary nurse, but I had no choice, so what was I meant to do, but yet still, in this day and age, I log on to the internet to find people slagging off people on benefits. WTF?
I now own my own house with my partner, who recently couldnt find a job for 5 months, so we had to claim job seekers, because I have a toddler and I am pregnant. What choice did I have?
And I continue to stand by my saying that it really is nobodies business what people spend at Christmas. I will be spoiling me son this year, just like the last, and just like I did when I was on benefits, because BELIEVE IT OR NOT, some people actually GO WITHOUT things to spoil their children. And I will be having a bloody good Christams this year, whether people are worrying about how much Iv spent or not!!

I am aorry Nixkernacker.. you lost me on the bit when you started to say that you were turning down factory jobs because they are soul destroying and boring... also the bit where you only earn a little more working than on benefits so what's the point...

I wish I could be so selective,,, there are days where I want to drop what I am doing and stay at home but my conscience and sense of social responsibility stops me from doing this..

Just one question.. do you smoke?

Meant to be; spoiling MY son, not 'me son'.

I turn down factory jobs because of the hours - around here it's 12 hour shifts 4 days a week, leaving you too shattered to do anything else. And the reason I would turn down work that only pays a tenner extra is because of the extra funds required to travel to and from work, and the other related costs.
I do not smoke, no, but what relevance is that, anyway?

Don't worry UQD I too only pay personal tax in January,..I also have to pay business tax in Sept and like you never have enough...The problem for self employed / freelancers is that there is no consistency in income to enable us to budget easily and that many clients (mine particularly media!) don't pay on a 30 day policy....Much as I love my job sometimes I just wish for a normal employed position where I'm handed my wage - tax/ni each month

I think it comes down to this middle class value thing that 'spending money on new things is vulgar'. Guess I was brought up with this value. Big old house, old embarrasing car, nothing much new.

I do spend money a fair amount on DD maybe because I'm a single mum and dont want to stigmatise her. But I dont go over the top. Had a partner that was in some ways a bit more 'working class' and thought that you were poor if you didnt buy branded goods and had sky tv, ffs. Thought the kids had to have the latest gadgets. It put me off him and was part of the reason we split up. So understand what the op meant.

Saying that I've met very wealthy people that give their kids all the lastest too. So I really dont think you can stereotype why people spend or not. Just hope everyone enjoys their Christmas in their own way.

Magdel, you may be on to something there. I was brought up in the same way. I think for me it came of having wartime-era parents, used to "make do and mend" and "waste not, want not" and all that.

I have been on income support. Thankfully a long time ago, and only for a short time in between jobs - it wasn't pleasant. My abiding memory of the Job Bureau or whatever they called themselves was that they were incredibly insistent that I should turn up at the appointed hour, in the appointed office, with the appointed paperwork. And my understanding was that if I hadn't found anything in 12 weeks (?) I'd be sent on a course. I really don't know how people manage to pull the wool over their eyes.

nickernacker, I can find nothing to take issue with in yours of 20:46:23. I don't think there is anything I "don't get". I've never doubted that there are a lot of decent people trying to get jobs. That doesn't mean there aren't people taking the piss, sadly.

A lot of people in work would like 12 hour days. Some of us work longer hours regularly but there we are. These are always interesting discussions.

The person who said pregnant with a baby so couldn't get a job why? I was hired when 5 months pregnant. Why does pregnancy stop you working? If your partner is off work that's ideal as you have ready made babysitting for the toddler.

I know I've said some strong stuff on here, mainly in support of those with V small amounts of spare cash - mainly because that's the situation I've been in, working or not, since I made some very VERY stupid decisions when I turned 18. I learn't my lesson quickly and will NEVER make the same mistakes again, but it has taken years to fix the damage I caused to my finances, and loosing my last job in 2005 almost destroyed what little confidence and regard for my self that I had left, but that is all probably more suited to a different thread!

I have popped on this thread today to help back up and somewhat agree with some of what has been said so far in the most recent posts.

I was raised in a middle class family. I NEVER had things that were of a specific brand but I did not have any old tat either. The gifts I was given varied from a box of fabric and paper scraps my grandfather had collected for me throughout the year to make things out of through a new pack of felt tips/crayons/paints to a new (to me) sewing machine/bicycle(I certainly never had a brand new bike, they always came with their own character, as my mom liked to put it!
I loved my christmases and in no way would I turn back time and get them to give be the barbie dreamhouse my friend got or the branded trainers all the kids at school were wearing, because in all truth, I wasn't interested in those things for any other reason than to 'fit in' with the other kids. If I had of recieved those branded gifts, my school day may well have been easier but my christmas would have been a big let down from about a second after I'd found out what was under the pretty wrapping paper!

My partner, on the otherhand, was raised in a working class family who had to work hard for everything they ever had, They never had much but they always had what they considered to be quality - something with a brand on it! He does not wear branded clothes, as in designer labels, but he has the biggest collection of T-shirts I have ever seen. None are plain. Every T-shirt is 'dedicated' to a certain band/gives a certain political message and all are selected very carefully. If he had his way, we'd have a tv in every room (I do not see the point of a tv in the kitchen or bedroom and will not permit it, even when we did have a spare portable)He has 3 game consols (he would have liked to buy more but I don't see the point, so he hasn't got more!) Up until I sat him down and had a good talk with him he went overdrawn every month, He'd buy me expensive but pointless and IMO tacky gifts just because he felt he needed to to demonstrate that he cared for me. And just when I thought I'd re-educated him on the value of money and how to assess what we really need to buy and what we don't he really surprises me...
... I asked him what he would like for christmas. I was thinking, as we don't have spare cash really but he was going to get a bonus for christmas we could treat each other with it so something inexpensive, useful AND something that would make us smile - about £20 each!...
...He turned around and told me he wants a camcorder - a certain type, made by a certain company! (He's getting it, because he has had nothing all year and he works hard)To buy him this camcorder I am going without my christmas treat AND certain moneys I know are coming my way from family members this year will also have to go towards it. I'm not bitter btw, just surprised at him!

Anyway, the point in telling you all this is that I think it really is true that what people value depends on what they were raised to view as quality.

Very interesting post PK.

Yes, I live amongs the nouveau riche by and large and you can see it by their cars, interest in brands etc. Many of them came from very very little to building up very successful businesses and I don't see why they can't spend their money on anything that makes them happy.

What is always fascinating is seeing how people started and how they end up and what choices led them to have the life they then lead particularly as I've 3 older children deciding on careers/work etc. Obviously money isn't the key to happiness but avoiding being very short of it if you have a choice is sometimes wise.

Xenia I think the getting a job whilst pg depends very much on the skills you have- if you're a high flier with excellent skills then its worth an employer taking risks RE amternity leave to have you on his team; if you're looking at a job with no unusual skills or aptitudes and fifty applicants then you'e a lot less likely to get hired aren't you? That's fairly basic logic I would haev thought. Also depends on your career- some jobs require rpegnant women to restrict what they can do (lifting in some jobs, or say for my sister- a Vet Nurse- she can't do nights when PG as the night staff handle anaesthetics in emergencies that are teratogens and that really annoys her bosses, although unavoidable).

The 4 / on 4 / off 12 hift pattern is common everywhere now though and ime (Dh works it) is a great one for famillies where one parent is at home, the days that are written off (add on a log dommute and some natural extensions to hours) are more than amde up for by the downtime; the problem comes when both aprents work, as esp. if both need to work into the evening as it can be nigh on impossible to find childcare that works with that.

Yes, true. Also I had had 2 children in the last 3 years and returned to work after 2 weeks with each and had a full time nanny, commitment and could prove that was what happened when I had babies and they wanted me. But some jobs say you could get in London today a seasonal christmas job in a shop at 5 months pregnant definitely and get money for that next month or so. My daughters are on the books of some catering agencies where you can pick the hours you work and the town and I doubt you need too many qualifications for that although if you look pretty and young you get the nice jobs handing out drinks and if you're ugly male and fat you tend to end up in the kitchen peeling carrots and I'm sure you wouldn't get those even if you were pregnant. Sometimes those jobs can lead to other things as well - I know someone who built her corporate catering business on the back of starting out like that and the men she chatted up whilst serving them food etc.

As for long days it's very hard. I have to go abroad on business on Wednesday so that's finding something like 72 hours of continuous childcare when the children are on school holiday. I am lucky I have older adult children here to cover the nights.

I agree about temporary work, the problem is that I think sometimes people are worried about getting back into the system after- you have to sign off, then re-apply after a few weeks and you can end up with no money whilse they process your forms.... a system failure really, people should be rewarded for what they do (someone made the point about the cost of work and thats a valid one- the distance etc of jobs you can apply for shrinks whilst you are looking, and that shoudl be addressed by the benefits peole eg by contributing towards petrol until first pay cheque- overall saving for benefits agencies in the long run).