Ds expected to “help” another pupil with work in class

[LostFrog]

Ds is 9 years old, just started Year 5, first year of new school (middle school system here).

He tells me that when he has finished his own work in class, he is required to help a boy who sits next to him. This happens every single lesson, and he says that the boy is reluctant to work, won’t write anything, gives up quickly and mutters all the time that he doesn’t get it, etc. From asking around, this seems to be the standard on every table in the class - there is one or two pupils who are “learning mentors” who have to teach the less able ones.

Is this a) normal, and b) reasonable? It’s not like ds volunteered for this role. If he has finished, Shouldn’t he be offered an extension task whilst the teacher or TA (there is one, I checked) help the ones who are struggling? I have emailed the teacher to ask them to clarify what’s expected, but has anyone else come across this?

helping Jaxxon helps you understand how he's using numbers

I couldn’t give a stuff how Jason uses numbers, he’s the teacher’s problem not mine.

Well, presumably Jaxxon is using numbers incorrectly so best not to learn anything from him really

Quite.

@peaceanddove

Sorry, that's not worded clearly. I meant that she's tutoring girls who are already in the top 20% based on academic ability.

Why? Instead of doing her own extension tasks?

@TatianaBis

helping Jaxxon helps you understand how he's using numbers

I couldn’t give a stuff how Jason uses numbers, he’s the teacher’s problem not mine.

Well, presumably Jaxxon is using numbers incorrectly so best not to learn anything from him really

Quite.

It’s a skill your kid could learn though.

Can you count in base 8?

But she clearly doesn’t understand maths enough that she can explain it to someone who doesn’t.

If peaceanddove's daughter's incomprehension of the subject is the reason why the lightbulb didn't flick on in Jaxxon's head, then does that mean the class teacher also not understand the subject properly- as the teacher could not flick on the switch? If Jaxxon also fails to understand the Kreb's cycle or irregular French verbs does that mean that Jaxxon's biology and French teachers also have a poor grasp of the subject.

Well no, because according to your logic she shouldn’t be helping other kids with their maths, she should be being challenged herself. Why waste her time mentoring others instead of extension tasks?

She is already happily challenged in her top set group, well as challenged as she wants to be. Maths is no longer her first love, sadly. She's all about Economics and French nowadays. She just does the mentoring in her free periods - it looks good on her UCAS form.

@lazylinguist

(I'm a teacher). This is not on. Well, not as a regular thing anyway. If your ds is finishing his work early, he should be given an extension task to further his own learning, not be used as an unpaid child TA! It's fine to ask a child to help another with their work occasionally, but not the same children every time. And especially not if the helper child is being expected to navigate attitude or behaviour issues from the other child in order to be able to help.

I agree with this. I removed my eldest (15 years ago) from a school that had her “working” as a TA. She spent most of her time helping other children. They really didn’t understand why I thought it was inappropriate for my child to to teach and mentor other 6yo. When you’re a bit older explaining things to younger students reinforces your learning and that’s a good thing, but I think that’s appropriate only in a secondary school setting.

@powershowerforanhour

But she clearly doesn’t understand maths enough that she can explain it to someone who doesn’t.

If peaceanddove's daughter's incomprehension of the subject is the reason why the lightbulb didn't flick on in Jaxxon's head, then does that mean the class teacher also not understand the subject properly- as the teacher could not flick on the switch? If Jaxxon also fails to understand the Kreb's cycle or irregular French verbs does that mean that Jaxxon's biology and French teachers also have a poor grasp of the subject.

You’re still not understanding this process - their teacher is not expecting anyone to teach anyone anything. Nobody is responsible for Jaxxon’s education, aside from the actual paid professional. Nobody actually thinks your kid is knowledgeable enough to be a teacher.

Peer support is about sharing perspectives. So for everything Jaxxon learns from your kid (and he will! Not maths or verbs or biology, but communication, a different logic, vocabulary, community spirit, empathy) your kid will also learn from Jaxxon.

@peaceanddove

Well no, because according to your logic she shouldn’t be helping other kids with their maths, she should be being challenged herself. Why waste her time mentoring others instead of extension tasks?

She is already happily challenged in her top set group, well as challenged as she wants to be. Maths is no longer her first love, sadly. She's all about Economics and French nowadays. She just does the mentoring in her free periods - it looks good on her UCAS form.

So is the tutoring she does worthwhile or not?

But not well enough to explain what she’s doing.

Understanding a subject and teaching it are two completely different things. Which is why teachers have to train.

And why people with a facility for something don’t necessarily make the best teachers as they don’t know why other people find it hard.

@peaceanddove

Well no, because according to your logic she shouldn’t be helping other kids with their maths, she should be being challenged herself. Why waste her time mentoring others instead of extension tasks?

She is already happily challenged in her top set group, well as challenged as she wants to be. Maths is no longer her first love, sadly. She's all about Economics and French nowadays. She just does the mentoring in her free periods - it looks good on her UCAS form.

And also, why does it look good on her UCAS form?

Can you count in base 8

Nope, but I got a First for my dissertation on Eliot's deliberate use of obfuscation in his poetry. To be honest, the necessity of counting in base 8 has never really cropped up?

@TatianaBis

But not well enough to explain what she’s doing.

Understanding a subject and teaching it are two completely different things. Which is why teachers have to train.

And why people with a facility for something don’t necessarily make the best teachers as they don’t know why other people find it hard.

Again, and I’m not sure how to make this any clearer: the pupils are not being drafted in to teach. They’re not replacement teachers. Nobody thinks any ten year old is responsible for making sure other ten year olds understand maths.

Understanding a subject well enough to explain it to others is an incredible skill. Again, read up on mastery. It’s not about banking knowledge to pass exams, it’s about truly understanding what you’re doing alongside a million other skills. It would be an incredible thing for British children.

So is the tutoring she does worthwhile or not?

Tutoring is worthwhile if a 6th form or uni student chooses to do it because they’re interested in it, outside their own class time.

That’s not everyone though by a long way.

So is the tutoring she does worthwhile or not?

Why does it have to be worthwhile? It's effective though, apparently.

@peaceanddove

Can you count in base 8

Nope, but I got a First for my dissertation on Eliot's deliberate use of obfuscation in his poetry. To be honest, the necessity of counting in base 8 has never really cropped up?

What if your daughter hadn’t understood it and it’d been set as homework?

You seem to think knowledge is only good for passing exams. That’s not how most people think.

@peaceanddove

So is the tutoring she does worthwhile or not?

Why does it have to be worthwhile? It's effective though, apparently.

Effective how? Why are UCAS keen on it?

@TatianaBis

But not well enough to explain what she’s doing.

Understanding a subject and teaching it are two completely different things. Which is why teachers have to train.

And why people with a facility for something don’t necessarily make the best teachers as they don’t know why other people find it hard.

Exactly. Before taking up my place on my PGCE course, I worked as a TA to see if I had the ability to teach. I quickly learned I didn't have the ability and gave up my place on the course.

Understanding a subject well enough to explain it to others is an incredible skill.

It seems I have to explain again: understanding a subject and explaining it well are different skills.

Why would you think I need to read up on mastery? I know exactly what it is. I don’t think listening to Jaxxon stumble over his 8x table contributes.

And you don’t have the maths knowledge @peaceanddove

@TatianaBis

Understanding a subject well enough to explain it to others is an incredible skill.

It seems I have to explain again: understanding a subject and explaining it well are different skills.

Why would you think I need to read up on mastery? I know exactly what it is. I don’t think listening to Jaxxon stumble over his 8x table contributes.

Why don’t you think it contributes?

What if your daughter hadn’t understood it and it’d been set as homework?

DH got a A for Double Maths at A Level. I reckon he might have given her a hand.

@peaceanddove

What if your daughter hadn’t understood it and it’d been set as homework?

DH got a A for Double Maths at A Level. I reckon he might have given her a hand.

What if he wasn’t around?

School used dd like this all the time. By year 5, they'd moved her on to running the school office.

@Pumperthepumper

And you don’t have the maths knowledge *@peaceanddove*

Well, I wasn't intending on teaching maths. I sort of assumed they'd let me teach English?

Oh, sorry... was I meant to be cut to the quick by your pithy riposte?

No @peaceanddove I’m just joshing you.

You’d still use maths skills in an English classroom, of course.