Ds expected to “help” another pupil with work in class

[LostFrog]

Ds is 9 years old, just started Year 5, first year of new school (middle school system here).

He tells me that when he has finished his own work in class, he is required to help a boy who sits next to him. This happens every single lesson, and he says that the boy is reluctant to work, won’t write anything, gives up quickly and mutters all the time that he doesn’t get it, etc. From asking around, this seems to be the standard on every table in the class - there is one or two pupils who are “learning mentors” who have to teach the less able ones.

Is this a) normal, and b) reasonable? It’s not like ds volunteered for this role. If he has finished, Shouldn’t he be offered an extension task whilst the teacher or TA (there is one, I checked) help the ones who are struggling? I have emailed the teacher to ask them to clarify what’s expected, but has anyone else come across this?

@TatianaBis

I’m not in that classroom but I suspect something has gone wrong in the management of that paring.

It’s more what’s gone wrong with with pairing 9 year olds as a concept.

They are many posters contributing that the ways it went wrong for them - so it going wrong is fairly standard.

It isn’t though. Peer support works. It just needs to be managed properly, which is why we call it ‘classroom management’.

@TatianaBis

But that’s not the same as mixed ability groups.

Of course it’s not the same as mixed ability groups - it’s similar ability groups.

No. Setting does not mean mixed ability, or similar ability.

Setting means grouping kids by ability.

@TatianaBis

Setting means grouping kids by ability.

I apologise. I thought you meant classroom setup.

YANBU but this is common practice in my experience

www.tes.com/news/exclusive-mixed-ability-classes-more-effective-sets

The quote was from an article in TES.

There was also another guide about best practice when implementing mixed ability groups which states:
"
Don’t over-rely on high attainers explaining to others
Explaining learning to others can be very effective, but be careful not to depend too often on using high attaining students as explainers, as this can be frustrating for high attainers and patronising to students at other attainment levels."
www.tes.com/news/nine-dos-and-donts-mixed-ability-classes

To be fair, I think that you @pumperthepumper have been clear that pupils shouldn't be teaching when doing collaborative learning but I do think from the OP it would appear that it is clearly being misused (and has been misused in other situations as recalled by PPs).

@iloveruby

www.tes.com/news/exclusive-mixed-ability-classes-more-effective-sets

The quote was from an article in TES.

There was also another guide about best practice when implementing mixed ability groups which states:
"
Don’t over-rely on high attainers explaining to others
Explaining learning to others can be very effective, but be careful not to depend too often on using high attaining students as explainers, as this can be frustrating for high attainers and patronising to students at other attainment levels."
www.tes.com/news/nine-dos-and-donts-mixed-ability-classes

To be fair, I think that you @pumperthepumper have been clear that pupils shouldn't be teaching when doing collaborative learning but I do think from the OP it would appear that it is clearly being misused (and has been misused in other situations as recalled by PPs).

Thank you. I don’t that article is particularly contradictory to what I said either.

I don’t like using other pupils to teach others. Funny how it only happens in primary too.

Secondary they are set it sets due to ability no top set child is teaching a bottom set child to consolidate their learning as they are both learning totally different levels of maths.

It’s just lazy teaching in primary’s making all children so the same work regardless of ability.

I would be annoyed on behalf of BOTH kids - your son deserves extension work to challenge him further. The struggling child deserves an actual qualified teacher to help him, who knows his difficulties, and SEN etc and can take those things into account.

This is doing a huge disservice to both children and if I was the parent of either I would not be happy.

@Smartiepants79

Having to teach something to another person can actually be very helpful in improving your own understanding and clarifying your thought processes. Having to explain your thinking is a learning tool used in lots of areas. The only reason I’d have a serious problem with this is if it’s preventing my child from completing his own work or the other child is being horrible.

This is so true, as an A level Maths teacher I did a period of supply in a Primary school and I learned so much about my subject! Being of a generation that was taught how to do something, I now found out why it worked! However I would be unhappy if too much time was spent helping another child, especially an unpleasant one, your child needs some breadth in his work rather than ploughing on ahead.

Maths mastery is a completely different thing from being ‘good at maths’ ie your husband having a PhD in maths doesn’t mean he has maths mastery

DH as a child struggled with the concept that others perceive the world differently to him - a concept many adults clearly struggle with.

Only on MN would I then be told his first class degree in maths and physics, Phd which apply maths to real world situation,research papers applying maths to new situations, his work creating models of biolgical systems using underlying maths is completly irrelevant becuase he hasn't "mastered" maths.

What we do in classrooms now is remove the importance of the correct answer and instead look at ways we can manipulate numbers

I was taught that our working out were as important as the correct answer in the 80 and 90s but the right answer also mattered in my exams - got most points by doing both.

I suplimented our kids maths learning with mathsfactor - were they got clear explinations, worked examples and practise with the concepts demostrated their understanding of concept and how to manipulate numbers by getting the "right" answer and parental input if they struggled to get the right answer to work out why they were getting the wrong one.

I think they found noisy busy class room and group work hindered their early maths understanding and then they were trying to build on shaky foundations because their lack of real understanding wasn't picked up in school.

Again, I’d say that’s poor classroom management rather than something inherently wrong with peer support.

I agree and said that but there can be problems with peer support as well - clear frusrations with or even teasing over difficulties - that do seem to be overlooked or dismissed.

@randomlyLostInWales

Maths mastery is a completely different thing from being ‘good at maths’ ie your husband having a PhD in maths doesn’t mean he has maths mastery

DH as a child struggled with the concept that others perceive the world differently to him - a concept many adults clearly struggle with.

Only on MN would I then be told his first class degree in maths and physics, Phd which apply maths to real world situation,research papers applying maths to new situations, his work creating models of biolgical systems using underlying maths is completly irrelevant becuase he hasn't "mastered" maths.

What we do in classrooms now is remove the importance of the correct answer and instead look at ways we can manipulate numbers

I was taught that our working out were as important as the correct answer in the 80 and 90s but the right answer also mattered in my exams - got most points by doing both.

I suplimented our kids maths learning with mathsfactor - were they got clear explinations, worked examples and practise with the concepts demostrated their understanding of concept and how to manipulate numbers by getting the "right" answer and parental input if they struggled to get the right answer to work out why they were getting the wrong one.

I think they found noisy busy class room and group work hindered their early maths understanding and then they were trying to build on shaky foundations because their lack of real understanding wasn't picked up in school.

Again, I’d say that’s poor classroom management rather than something inherently wrong with peer support.

I agree and said that but there can be problems with peer support as well - clear frusrations with or even teasing over difficulties - that do seem to be overlooked or dismissed.

Only on MN would I then be told his first class degree in maths and physics, Phd which apply maths to real world situation,research papers applying maths to new situations, his work creating models of biolgical systems using underlying maths is completly irrelevant becuase he hasn't "mastered" maths.

That’s absolutely ridiculous, and not what I said at all.

What did she do when she wasn’t doing extension worksheets?

Well, I'm assuming she was participating in the general math lesson alongside the other children?

@peaceanddove

What did she do when she wasn’t doing extension worksheets?

Well, I'm assuming she was participating in the general math lesson alongside the other children?

So your daughters entire education was listening to a teacher talking, then filling in a worksheet?

Only on MN would I then be told his first class degree in maths and physics, Phd which apply maths to real world situation,research papers applying maths to new situations, his work creating models of biolgical systems using underlying maths is completly irrelevant becuase he hasn't "mastered" maths

Exactly, it's just descending into farce. Apparently, your DH hasn't mastered maths (despite, you know, the string of qualifications and the further degrees and the PhD and everything) because he wouldn't be fascinated why it was that the hapless Jaxxon was rubbish at maths nor entranced by Jaxxon's ability (correctly or incorrectly) to count in base 8.

Clearly, your DH

@peaceanddove

Only on MN would I then be told his first class degree in maths and physics, Phd which apply maths to real world situation,research papers applying maths to new situations, his work creating models of biolgical systems using underlying maths is completly irrelevant becuase he hasn't "mastered" maths

Exactly, it's just descending into farce. Apparently, your DH hasn't mastered maths (despite, you know, the string of qualifications and the further degrees and the PhD and everything) because he wouldn't be fascinated why it was that the hapless Jaxxon was rubbish at maths nor entranced by Jaxxon's ability (correctly or incorrectly) to count in base 8.

Clearly, your DH

I knew you’d love that comment @peaceanddove 😂

So your daughters entire education was listening to a teacher talking, then filling in a worksheet?

Quite possibly? I have absolutely no idea and couldn't care less. She left primary with 3 Level 6s in her SATs and gained 12 Level 7s, 8s, and 9s in her GCSEs. So it's all good

@peaceanddove

So your daughters entire education was listening to a teacher talking, then filling in a worksheet?

Quite possibly? I have absolutely no idea and couldn't care less. She left primary with 3 Level 6s in her SATs and gained 12 Level 7s, 8s, and 9s in her GCSEs. So it's all good

And university?

Are you asking if she's going to university? Or if she's at university?

You demand a lot of answers from other posters.

@peaceanddove

Are you asking if she's going to university? Or if she's at university?

No, I’m asking what you think her university education will look like?

Lectures, tutorials, copious drinking and sex with random strangers, I assume?

@peaceanddove

Lectures, tutorials, copious drinking and sex with random strangers, I assume?

Ok. I’m not really sure how much further we can take this conversation.

Ultimately, it doesn’t matter if you don’t like peer support. It’s being used all over the world because it’s a tried and tested, researched method that works. You preferring worksheets won’t change that.

Ultimately, it doesn’t matter if you don’t like peer support. It’s being used all over the world because it’s a tried and tested, researched method that works

I. Don't. Care.

@peaceanddove

Ultimately, it doesn’t matter if you don’t like peer support. It’s being used all over the world because it’s a tried and tested, researched method that works

I. Don't. Care.

You seem to care quite a lot, you’ve posted loads on this thread.