Surrogacy makes me very uncomfortable

[HermioneKipper]

I was listening to Giovanna Fletcher’s podcast with H from Steps and hearing them talk about him using a surrogate for his twins made me feel very uncomfortable.

It’s essentially renting a woman’s body to buy a baby.

I understand the woman must’ve consented but she was paid and it doesn’t take into account the risk she was putting her body through. Pregnancy and childbirth is a huge strain on a woman’s body and she risks serious injury giving birth that she’ll have for life.

Even more so as she had twins which is even more dangerous.

And the babies taken away from their birth mother immediately. Who knows what harm it does to them.

It feels akin to the black market of buying and selling organs.

I know I have children so perhaps don’t have the right to comment but it doesn’t sit right with me.

It’s up to the surrogate to decide what they wish to do with their body, no one is forcing them

They aren't deciding about only their own bodies they are making decisions about babies.

Decisions that wouldn't get legal approval in any other situation than significant risk of harm because of the recognized damage to the baby.

Not all surrogacy is paid for, and it doesn't always mean someone has been taken advantage of.
One of my good friends carried a baby for her brother and his wife, it was a real blessing for them

@DontStepOnTheMomeRathz

The same could be said for a sperm donor. Women using the man to gain a baby

I mean I’m generally in favour of surrogacy in a regulated and controlled environment.

But let’s not pretend that this is the same thing.

Not in terms of exploiting the mother.

But in terms of a man fathering a child he is giving away to someone else, on the condition of no financial/emotional responsibility, and possibly for money - it's still problematic.

They aren't deciding about only their own bodies they are making decisions about babies.

Decisions that wouldn't get legal approval in any other situation than significant risk of harm because of the recognized damage to the baby.

People surrender children for adoption all the time. If I purposely got pregnant tomorrow with the intention of placing the child for adoption, and then did so, there's nothing legally wrong with any of that. I don't think it harms the baby, but even if it did, that wouldn't change the legality or social acceptance of it. In general, though, babies are better off being raised by people who want to raise them than by people who don't, regardless of biological ties.

@longerevenings.
I don't think that money in any way shape or form should be exchanged for kidney donation.

I wasn't talking about selling a kidney, but a pure donation to someone in need.

They aren't deciding about only their own bodies they are making decisions about babies.

What's the difference at the end if the day between adoption and surrogacy? In fact surrogacy is often kinder because the baby is going straight to someone who wants them and they aren't moved through the fostering system to find a family.
There are lots of stories where children have extremely happy lives as an adopted child. Why wouldn't it be the same for children born through surrogacy?

@me4real

And the babies taken away from their birth mother immediately. Who knows what harm it does to them.

I don't think it'd harm them as they won't have known anything else.

I do think that there can be questions around whether the birth mum has any rights etc.

It's right that it's illegal here IMHO.

Actually children suffer from Attachment disorders when taken at birth in adoption cases so why is surrogacy any different?

The child's rights are completely overlooked in surrogacy.

@DrinkFeckArseBrick

I believe in the uk its illegal to pay someone to be a surrogate

But you can get paid 'expenses'...around £10,000 in the uk

Actually children suffer from Attachment disorders when taken at birth in adoption cases so why is surrogacy any different?

The child's rights are completely overlooked in surrogacy.

Attachment disorders are very rare in newborn adoptions, but are more common in adoptions of older children. A birthmother isn't the slave of either the child or the government, and she has the right to refuse to parent her child because she believes that's what's in her own best interest. This is true regardless of whether that decision harms the child, though it's difficult to envision a situation in which the child is better off being raised by a biological parent who doesn't want him than by an adoptive parent who wants a child. The only real difference between adoption and surrogacy in that regard is whether the decision to surrender the child was made before or after conception.

I think surrogacy is wrong. Not a popular opinion but it’s mine.

What's the difference at the end if the day between adoption and surrogacy?

Adoption has no money changing hands, no buying or selling of dc.

Adoption is done because it has been decided that it isn't safe for dc to remain with their birth parents.

A multi disciplinary group have spent days providing evidence to judge to explain the harm or risk of harm to dc before an adoption order will be granted.

Everyone involved in adoption accepts the damage the process does, it is a least worst option.

Creating a least worst option using money with none of the safeguards is trading in children.

Adoption in the UK is not mothers giving up dc as babies it hasn't been that for decades.

My daughter is 22 - altruistic surrogacy is a thing and getting more common in the U.K.

The network of surrogate children we know/know of seem to be unaffected by their start in life. They’re not remotely like babies who are taken by social services at birth. Generally the issues those children face are poor decisions during pregnancy plus foster care THEN adoption placement. We have that so wrong here
In the states the adoption system seems to be a huge majority of relinquished babies. Given straight to intended parents at birth thus avoiding the attachment issues

My daughter has always known. She’s proud of how she came about- she knows her bio mother and has a vague friend of the family affection for her.
She also knew me at birth from daily contact thru the pregnancy- turned to my voice snd settled immediately

It makes me uncomfortable too. It doesn’t seem to me that it’s a process which centres the needs of the baby. No baby is capable of consent, but if they were they wouldn’t consent to be taken from their birth mothers and given to strangers, regardless of how loving and nurturing those strangers were. It’s a process which prioritises the adult human’s need to be a parent over the rights of babies, and I find that hard to justify.

I’m less concerned about the element of ‘renting’ women’s bodies, because I think it’s something women can consent to. But I am very wary of the process being monetised, and I’m concerned about the way legislation is moving in this country to give surrogate parents greater rights over the unborn / newborn child. I think the process should be tightly controlled to ensure that 1) only truly altruistic surrogacy is permissible, to prevent any element of ‘buying’ babies and 2) that the birth mother has the right to refuse to proceed up to the moment that she agrees to sign adoption paperwork once the baby is born, with no financial penalties or repercussions.

I don’t doubt for a second that most surrogate parents are incredibly loving and perfectly capable of raising happy, beloved kids. But that doesn’t justify a process which is, in my view, inherently traumatising and problematic.

You will only get to know all the details about a person,who has chosen to become a surrogate woman, who has been through every aspect of surrogacy,and all that this entails, as in physically and emotionally and all other matters.

I get the principle of your discomfort, but I’m not anti surrogacy.

When I had my babies, they instantly, naturally wanted me for comfort. It would be really sad for them to not find it. But I seriously question if there’s any long term harm. Babies quickly bond with their fathers, there are babies who spend their early days in NICU away from their mothers, or their mother is unwell and dad has to care for them alone, and they still develop healthy bonds. I think as long as there is someone giving them love and care who they bond with, any early distress (and let’s face it, those first couple of days must have a fair bit anyway ) is quickly forgotten. I think “traumatic” is probably a bit far.

I’m more uncomfortable about the idea of women as baby machines. I realise it’s a massive difference between individual women consenting to be surrogates, and some widespread use of women’s bodies, but the concept makes me slightly uncomfortable. Payment makes me particularly uncomfortable, it feels so much like rich people renting a woman’s body and buying a baby. Where there isn’t payment, honestly, any woman who does that is fat, far kinder than me. I don’t get to say what another woman wants to do with her body, so as long as she consents, then it’s her choice.

I have less problem with adoption than I do with surrogacy. With surrogacy, the mother has no choice but to give up the baby. With adoption, in the US, anyway, potential adoptive parents can pay expenses for a birth mother, but she is not obligated to give up the baby if she changes her mind. Which can be heartbreaking for the adoptive parents, but it gives the birth mother more time to see if the choice is really what she wants. Instead of taking the baby into foster care, it can go directly to the adoptive parents, so it could be in a stable home environment with parents who really wanted it, but the mother would still have a period of time (3 months to a year, depending) before the adoption was finalized. Some women might prefer this solution to abortion for personal reasonsit seems reasonable to me if a woman is already pregnant and doesn't want to keep the baby. But the process of taking high levels of drugs and getting pregnant on demandthat seems unpleasant and unhealthy.

Ahhhhh brilliant thread as ever

I'm in the UK & have a child through surrogacy. He was not "taken away from his mother at birth" he was, in all of our words "handed over to his mother".

The risks are well covered in agreements but you would only know that if you are open to finding out the ins and outs of it.

Certainly in the UK there is no exploitation and in fact it is the intended parents who have less rights through our outdated system. That's why celebrities go to the US.

Women's bodies are commodities and babies are too.

I think surrogacy is an important feminist issue.
I do also think that same sex or couples with health problems shouldn't not be allowed children but I think the focus is very much on what an adult wants rather than a child centric approach that puts the needs and wants of a child above those wishes.

@HermioneKipper

I was listening to Giovanna Fletcher’s podcast with H from Steps and hearing them talk about him using a surrogate for his twins made me feel very uncomfortable.

It’s essentially renting a woman’s body to buy a baby.

I understand the woman must’ve consented but she was paid and it doesn’t take into account the risk she was putting her body through. Pregnancy and childbirth is a huge strain on a woman’s body and she risks serious injury giving birth that she’ll have for life.

Even more so as she had twins which is even more dangerous.

And the babies taken away from their birth mother immediately. Who knows what harm it does to them.

It feels akin to the black market of buying and selling organs.

I know I have children so perhaps don’t have the right to comment but it doesn’t sit right with me.

YANBU At all Surrogacy is child trafficking. It's horrific.

@Unfashionable

This issue seems to be to be similar to same-sex marriage. If you don’t approve of same-sex marriage, don’t marry someone of the same sex. Problem solved.

If you don’t approve of surrogacy, don’t be a surrogate yourself or employ a surrogate to carry a baby on your behalf. Problem solved.

In either case, respect the fact that other adults are entitled to the freedom to make their own decisions about what they choose to do with their own bodies or their own money. That’s what happens in a free society.

Bollocks.

It isn't enough to just not participate in exploitation if you don't agree with exploitation. Standing by and not challenging it makes us all complicit.

@Minster2012

Ahhhhh brilliant thread as ever

I'm in the UK & have a child through surrogacy. He was not "taken away from his mother at birth" he was, in all of our words "handed over to his mother".

The risks are well covered in agreements but you would only know that if you are open to finding out the ins and outs of it.

Certainly in the UK there is no exploitation and in fact it is the intended parents who have less rights through our outdated system. That's why celebrities go to the US.

The outdated system where the woman who gestated and birthed the baby - the mother - gets to change her mind within a specific timeframe after birth? Yes, what an unfair system Posts like this show exactly why surrogacy needs to be banned

I agree with you @HermioneKipper. And disagree that if we don't like it we should scroll past. This is a female issue.
My attitude to surrogacy changed when I saw a report on a surrogacy organisation in India.
Pregnancy and childbirth change bodies forever. How do you put a price on that?
Too many what ifs for me.

YANBU
It is the commodification of women and babies and the exploitation of the poor by the rich.
It creates babies with attachment disorder. The baby is born with an attachment to the woman who carried it and, from most accounts of surrogacy, there is no gentle severing of that bond. The baby is wrenched away at birth.
It is all about money and the wants of the wealthy purchasers and nothing about the needs of the baby

Surrogacy is against my religion and at first I wasn't sure why and even thought about it to help a friend. However the more I hear the more I dislike it.

When Covid started there were rooms full of babies who now didn't have any mother to take care of them! The birth mothers were out of the scene and the new parents were stuck in a different country!!!! they didn't even go there earlier to make sure the pregnancy was going ok! The babies.l could have been born premature but these parents were only travelling after it was already out?! How convenient.....