Surrogacy makes me very uncomfortable

[HermioneKipper]

I was listening to Giovanna Fletcher’s podcast with H from Steps and hearing them talk about him using a surrogate for his twins made me feel very uncomfortable.

It’s essentially renting a woman’s body to buy a baby.

I understand the woman must’ve consented but she was paid and it doesn’t take into account the risk she was putting her body through. Pregnancy and childbirth is a huge strain on a woman’s body and she risks serious injury giving birth that she’ll have for life.

Even more so as she had twins which is even more dangerous.

And the babies taken away from their birth mother immediately. Who knows what harm it does to them.

It feels akin to the black market of buying and selling organs.

I know I have children so perhaps don’t have the right to comment but it doesn’t sit right with me.

Surely it's better she carries her own baby?

Oh of course it is. But it was also painful and invasive and difficult for her.

In all honesty, at the point I was talking about surrogacy we didn’t really know why they weren’t conceiving (still don’t really know the reason). I didn’t say I’d made a concrete plan but had it come to it I would have absolutely done it if I could have made the decision in a vacuum. I’d have used my own egg if need be, I just wanted to help.

This is NOT an amazing thing to do for someone. This is not about the women. It is not about fertility problems - and no one has the right to have a baby, however sad that makes them. Its not about the surrogate being magnanimous - no one should get to be magnanimous with someone else's (the infants) life. The only person that matters here is the infant and it is in no babies best interest to be taken from its biological mother at birth.

@me4real

And the babies taken away from their birth mother immediately. Who knows what harm it does to them.

I don't think it'd harm them as they won't have known anything else.

I do think that there can be questions around whether the birth mum has any rights etc.

It's right that it's illegal here IMHO.

I don't see how surrogacy as a concept is any less exploitative than the sex industry - the difference is, it's more visible. You can pretend that prostitution isn't happening, but you can't ignore a giant baby bump, so the concept of selling a woman's body is more in your face.

If men could give birth too, would we feel as uncomfortable with the concept of renting a womb? Or it because only women can sell their body to house a baby and we think women are more easily taken advantage of?

What if a surrogate was carrying a baby for a lesbian couple? Would we feel any different if there was no bloke involved throwing money around?

TBH, I think I'd actually feel more comfortable if money could change hands like it does overseas. I think a pregnancy is a big deal, and it should be possible to compensate the surrogate for the impact to her health and career. I understand the motivation for keeping remuneration here to expenses only, but I feel like rather than protecting women, it actually minimises what they go through.

it is in no babies best interest to be taken from its biological mother at birth

A very sweeping statement.

My friend adopted a two toddlers, one of whom was removed, addicted to heroin, from their abusive junkie parents at birth. Now I appreciate this is not what we are talking about here but it’s wrong and offensive to make sweeping statements like that.

'And the babies taken away from their birth mother immediately. Who knows what harm it does to them.

I don't think it'd harm them as they won't have known anything else.'

Actually it does them a shed load of harm, which is why social services try to avoid taking babies into care if at all possible. Surely we all know this?

For those saying there shouldn’t be any harm to the baby being taken from it’s mum straight away. This isn’t the thinking now for babies placed for adoption (it probably was in the 60s where it was very much about the birth and adoptive parents and not about the baby at all).
A friend has adopted a baby recently, they had to do a lot of reading on how this could impact the baby now not just in the future when they find out they are adopted.
The same consideration doesn’t seem to be made for surrogate children.

Ideally I don’t think women should use sperm donors and go it alone either. Children need two parents if at all possible and people who willingly choose to bring a baby into the world without a father are reckless. And not thinking in the best interests of the child. I know of two women that have done this and both of them have found being a single parent extremely difficult

Actually studies show that children of solo mothers by choice are no worse off than loving two parent families. It’s poor parent-child relationships or very acrimonious relationship breakdowns that impact children more, regardless of the number of parents. And I’ve no doubt that men abandoning their kids (like many do!) causes even more emotional harm to the child. Because let’s not pretend that all fathers are wonderful and all coupled/separated parents are in respectful relationships and perfectly coparenting.

That’s not to say egg/sperm donation doesn’t come with its own issues that need careful consideration with regards to the child, but to say women are reckless for choosing to do it alone is ignorant.

I don't see how surrogates (especially when the donor egg and/or sperm come from the intended parents) can be said to have been exploited

One of the things that makes me most angry about surrogacy is the idea that if the baby is not genetically linked to the mother, she not only shouldn't have any rights, but she is also expected not to mind giving the child up. While. in order for that to happen, some woman is submitted to dangerous hormone treatment for egg harvesting and the pregnancy is going to be much more dangerous for both the mother and the baby. And all that, for the legal fiction that the birth mother will feel nothing for the baby she carried for nine months.

And the babies taken away from their birth mother immediately. Who knows what harm it does to them

My dgd needed to hear the voice of her father for her to take her first breathe. And that was just the man who talked to her mother, I can't imagine what it is like for a baby to be taken away from their mother.

@islandbeach

Ideally I don’t think women should use sperm donors and go it alone either. Children need two parents if at all possible and people who willingly choose to bring a baby into the world without a father are reckless. And not thinking in the best interests of the child. I know of two women that have done this and both of them have found being a single parent extremely difficult

Actually studies show that children of solo mothers by choice are no worse off than loving two parent families. It’s poor parent-child relationships or very acrimonious relationship breakdowns that impact children more, regardless of the number of parents. And I’ve no doubt that men abandoning their kids (like many do!) causes even more emotional harm to the child. Because let’s not pretend that all fathers are wonderful and all coupled/separated parents are in respectful relationships and perfectly coparenting.

That’s not to say egg/sperm donation doesn’t come with its own issues that need careful consideration with regards to the child, but to say women are reckless for choosing to do it alone is ignorant.

The ideal is clearly two loving and involved parents.

Obviously if circumstances mean it’s unavoidable then I’m sure the single parent does a great job but to do it purposefully is selfish. It puts their needs first, not the needs of the child.

As I said before I personally know two women who’ve gone down the sperm donor route and completely underestimated how hard it would be alone with no one to share the highs and the lows.

*The ideal is clearly two loving and involved parents.

Obviously if circumstances mean it’s unavoidable then I’m sure the single parent does a great job but to do it purposefully is selfish. It puts their needs first, not the needs of the child.

As I said before I personally know two women who’ve gone down the sperm donor route and completely underestimated how hard it would be alone with no one to share the highs and the lows.*

Everybody has children for selfish reasons. I love it when people imply couples who can conceive naturally have children for purely altruistic reasons. 😂

do you also disagree with sperm donation for couples too? Or is it just single mothers you have an issue with?

A huge proportion of natural conception babies are not conceived from two loving and involved parents and women choose to continue pregnancies alone as single parents. Do you think those women are selfish and wreckless too?

You are lucky, you can have children

Many can’t, ( including heterosexual couples( and therefore turn to surrogacy as an option

It’s up to the surrogate to decide what they wish to do with their body, no one is forcing them

OP your instincts are spot on.

For those of you who are saying surrogacy is fine, I challenge you to listen to the audio of this talk at Filia 2019 and tell me you think it's OK then.

It's a human rights violation, "even" in the US or UK.

The audio is towards the bottom of the page:

www.filia.org.uk/latest-news/2019/11/8/surrogacy-a-human-rights-violation-filia-conference-2019

@Chloemol

You are lucky, you can have children

Many can’t, ( including heterosexual couples( and therefore turn to surrogacy as an option

It’s up to the surrogate to decide what they wish to do with their body, no one is forcing them

This in spades.

I find it strange that some are more troubled by surrogacy than abortion.

You don't have to like it, but why should one person's opinion matter than anyone else's?

If a surrogate has a baby for a couple and the egg is from the woman and not the surrogate then she is only the host surely?

@OneMoreStitch

I find it strange that some are more troubled by surrogacy than abortion.

You don't have to like it, but why should one person's opinion matter than anyone else's?

Surrogacy troubles me more than abortion because pregnancy has a more traumatic impact on a woman's body than an abortion (especially if aborted early on).

The side effects of a pregnancy are never good for the woman concerned (tearing, pain and weight gain to name a few that occur in even the smoothest of typical pregnancies) but sometimes an abortion can save the woman's life (e.g. if she needs certain drugs and they're not compatible with a pregnancy). Two very different scenarios for the hypothetical woman whose body is being discussed - I don't see how you can compare on any level.

I'd rather have a few women be taken advantage of than have all women be presumed to be too mentally defective to make adult decisions about what decisions are best for themselves and their families, or decide what risks to their bodies they aren't and aren't willing to accept. What you're talking about here is nothing less than the belief that women aren't mentally capable of functioning on a fully adult level.

For those people who disagree with surrogacy, how do you feel about kidney donation?

@Porridgealert

For those people who disagree with surrogacy, how do you feel about kidney donation?

I understand it even less. Mind you, the numbers are very low - I think it's about 300 live donations every year in the UK? So statistically, that's got to round down to practically no one. Actually, I have no idea how common surrogacy is here, or in a country where the rules on payment are relaxed. Anyone have the numbers?

Pregnancy may mess you up, but giving up an organ definitely will. You can live with just one kidney, but you then have no spare left. It's such a huge thing to do.

If it's not a parent/child scenario, I don't understand why anyone would be a living donor. Being completely honest, I guess I just can't relate to someone that selfless.

You can write the law in the same way we write contact law to protect vulnerable people: with prohibitions on manipulation, undue influence, etc. You can also mandate that the birth mother has rights of claim to the baby within four months of birth, or similar. There are ways to regulate it.
My concern is with couples who want a baby to groom. It happens. www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-01/australian-who-fathered-surrogate-twins-facing-abuse-charges/5710796

Abortion stops an unwanted baby having a shitty unwanted life; what's not to love?

I'm American and I think it should be illegal.

@Lollipop567

My best friend used a surrogate (her sister) as she’d had many late term miscarriages and just couldn’t carry a child. She is the most amazing mother, her son has always known what happened and is really close to his aunty. It’s completely different to paying someone far less fortunate. Surrogacy isn’t black and white.

Absolutely. My best friend had some issues conceiving and I actively considered surrogacy for her but fortunately she did conceive in the end so I never had to put my money where my mouth was, so to speak

For those people who disagree with surrogacy, how do you feel about kidney donation?

I don't think that money in any way shape or form should be exchanged for kidney donation. ( or any other body part)

However a kidney isn't a standalone sentient being that stands to experience a trauma by being removed from the body.