Surrogacy makes me very uncomfortable

[HermioneKipper]

I was listening to Giovanna Fletcher’s podcast with H from Steps and hearing them talk about him using a surrogate for his twins made me feel very uncomfortable.

It’s essentially renting a woman’s body to buy a baby.

I understand the woman must’ve consented but she was paid and it doesn’t take into account the risk she was putting her body through. Pregnancy and childbirth is a huge strain on a woman’s body and she risks serious injury giving birth that she’ll have for life.

Even more so as she had twins which is even more dangerous.

And the babies taken away from their birth mother immediately. Who knows what harm it does to them.

It feels akin to the black market of buying and selling organs.

I know I have children so perhaps don’t have the right to comment but it doesn’t sit right with me.

This might be a bit of an odd question @Lemonsandlemonade but if your son has been born from an egg donor you would still be the mother, having given birth to him. But by contrast, when a surrogate mother gives birth to a baby who doesn't share her DNA she isn't considered the mother, despite having given birth to him.

I wonder why it's one way for one, and another way even though the circumstance of where the DNA comes from is the same.

It's inconsistent (and I don't feel the same way about it as sperm donation, this relates specifically to egg, baby and who gives birth.)

Yeah lemons - sperm donation, especially as you describe, is a positive for women. I have no problem with women controlling whatever sperm they want! It doesn’t involve exploiting women or men. Egg donation is less straight forward with much more risk.

@Comedycook

I'm against surrogacy and thinking about it, I'm also against sperm/egg donation. Whilst infertility is horrible for individuals and couples, ethically, I think these interventions are wrong.

I actually hate the term “donor” they’re not a donor to the child, they’re a blood relation, they’re literally a part of them. These “donors” are giving their children away.

@OhHolyJesus I find surrogacy a hard concept to grasp. I am not for or against it as such but I also know I could never be someone’s surrogate because of the bond I know I would develop.

As for egg donation for me the process of getting the eggs is much harder and more gruelling for the woman than simply getting sperm. I am not sure I would want to put someone through that but can understand why it would be a route for some couples. If it had been the only option for us I know we would have thought long and hard the same as we did for sperm donor.

Not sure that answers the question.

@TheRebelle the term donor is in dictionary as person who gives blood or a part of his or her body to be used by doctors in medical treatment. This is what a sperm donor does they give away their sperm for a medical treatment. They are not giving their children away because they are not their child. Yes they share DNA but that’s it.

I’m with you OP. A baby gets to know the voice, laughter, and even the language of its mother in the womb (I didn’t even know about how babies begin to distinguish between different languages and accents from inside the womb until researching pregnancy - frankly I learned so much that blew me away, like they even cry in there!), and people would take that newborn away from the human home it knows because they’ve bought it - weirdly enough, no, not ok with trading in defenceless babies bonded to their actual parent like that.

@OhHolyJesus
I read the other day in the UK the mother is the woman who gave birth. In the case of a surrogate she can't give up parental rights until baby is 6weeks.
So at least the law is consistent that way.

@Lemonsandlemonade you do have a point about people not in the know seeing what they want too see. A friend who was a long-term foster mum commented about strangers saying her FD looked like her.

With a heterosexual couple it's probably the norm just not to tell people that the child is a result of donor egg / sperm.

More difficult for a child of a homosexual couple explain the mum / dad situation. Very young kids will accept anything but they will go through a phase when they lack filter but understand man / woman = baby.

[quote Lemonsandlemonade]@TheRebelle the term donor is in dictionary as person who gives blood or a part of his or her body to be used by doctors in medical treatment. This is what a sperm donor does they give away their sperm for a medical treatment. They are not giving their children away because they are not their child. Yes they share DNA but that’s it.[/quote]
But sperm or eggs aren’t part of your body in the same way blood or a kidney is, they become a person. Let’s say you donated your eggs and later found out the child had been abused or had been brought up in poverty you wouldn’t feel guilty about that? You wouldn’t feel any connection to that child? As far as I’m concerned you have a responsibility to your children and I can’t not see donating sperm or eggs as giving away children.

Not sure that answers the question.

It doesn't really but I can understand why. It's difficult and personal and thank you for your answer.

For me it is a double standard around language I just don't get. A mother is only a mother it suits us to call her one, if it doesn't then we can't call a surrogate mother a mother, we call her a surrogate, but a woman who had a baby from an egg 'donor' is a mother. It's weird, I don't get it.

They are not giving their children away because they are not their child. Yes they share DNA but that’s it.

I disagree with this (but it's not personal, just my view). The DNA is in the gametes which make the baby, without them there wouldn't be a foetus. The foetus becomes a child and it is a blood relative of the man or woman who gave them their DNA. It is a child, or a potential child, then once the child is born the child is 'theirs' as in he or she is related to them, but will not be the social and legal parent. The shared DNA is in every cell and connects them to others who share the same DNA. I don't like the idea of reducing the importance of that.

So at least the law is consistent that way.

Yes it is currently but law reform of surrogacy is in progress and if proposals pass then the 6 weeks goes to zero as commissioning parents would have parental rights at birth. This would become the only situation in which that 6 week period wouldn't apply, it would remain for fostering, adoption etc.

With surrogacy now as it currently is in law, the baby stay with the mother for 6 hours minimum and then can go 'home' with the commissioning parent/s, so even now that law doesn't apply to where the baby is, just when you can apply to transfer parental rights. You have to wait 6 weeks before you apply for a parental order and it can take about 6 months.

@TheRebelle whilst I would be saddened I would never want a child to be abused the blame shouldn’t be in the donor it’s a bit of an odd argument to have. The person who did the abusing should be sold responsible.

Sperm donation and subsequent IVF is clinical and I think of it as such,

But sperm or eggs aren’t part of your body in the same way blood or a kidney is, they become a person

If we could grow a whole person from stem cells (no doubt someone will try that some day) then you could argue that any cell (skin, hair, kidney, egg) is just a cell and we could clone or grow babies from single cells. But we can't do that so we don't make that argument. We still need gametes and maybe even science will never overtake nature for human reproduction.

Well I guess you would think of it as clinical as you’ve used it and benefitted from it.

I wonder if the child would feel the same way.

I think your situation is slightly different as your child is both your biological and birth child. He may have some questions about his biological father though.

A friend of mine was conceived with donor sperm and she’s found it very difficult as the donor wanted no contact with her. She recently had a child of her own and she said it was awful in midwife appointments not being able to provide her fathers medical history

@OhHolyJesus I don’t mean to make DNA less important what I meant which didn’t come across was that the donor had a role to play yes but it’s the responsibility of the parent(s) who have the donor child to navigate that child through life. Does that make sense?

My son is mine and my husbands and without the donor he wouldn’t be here ( I am more grateful than anyone could know to the donor) but with that he is mine and my husbands.

@HermioneKipper I can see how hard that would be for your friend. It is something both me and my DH talked about during our counselling session and also separately.

With regards to the clinical aspect of how my son was made I don’t know how my son will feel as he is only a baby but I will do my upmost to be honest with him and navigate his way through any feelings he may have.

Again if he did want information in his biological father my husband and I do have information that we ca share with him if and when needed. We fully support him if one day he wants to contact the donor.

Does that make sense?

It does, the sperm donor is a sort of third party and has no claim to make to your child, but is a part of your child and may be of more importance to your child as he grows up. No one can predict how he will feel as a teenager, as a young man or a man staring his own family. It may not matter to him at all or his siblings might be more important to him. All you can do is navigate that as best you can, and maybe it will not be an issue at all. Thankfully there is more knowledge, awareness and support now, for donor conceived children and this is relevant to, but separate from, surrogate born children (though I see why you brought it into the discussion as there is an overlap and the OP is about a child who is both.)

@Lemonsandlemonade
Can I be nosy and ask if you were to have a second child would you be able to use the same donor, assuming they were still willing?

Saddened? I don’t know why you think it’s an odd argument, we’re supposed to protect our children, our every instinct is to look after them so giving eggs or sperm away to strangers to create a child that you will have nothing to do with and that you can’t protect is strange, most people wouldn’t hand over a fully formed child except in the most extreme circumstances, I just don’t see how eggs or sperm are any different.

I find surrogacy less uncomfortable than using donor eggs and sperm. Particularly where the surrogate is carrying the full biological child of the intended parents - ie not using her own eggs

Using donors is probably one of the most selfish decisions you can make - it is putting your want to be a "parent" above everything else and most importantly that of the resulting child. But people who have used donors aren't ever going to admit that because they are the ones who have benefited from it. The people I know conceived via donors who are just reaching adulthood have serious mental health issues surrounding who they are and the decision forced upon them - especially in the case of single parenthood or same sex parenthood

I have children via ivf - So I do understand how devastating infertility is but just because we can do something doesn't mean we should

Someone once told me that as a woman as we are born with all the eggs we will ever have then that means we start life inside our grandmothers. There is a familial link that spans generations . DNA to me is everything

Take adoption - if you are adopted you can have the most wonderful adopted parents in the world and the most amazing upbringing but the majority still end up looking for their biological parents - If DNA wasn't important then why would they??

@Lollipop567

My best friend used a surrogate (her sister) as she’d had many late term miscarriages and just couldn’t carry a child. She is the most amazing mother, her son has always known what happened and is really close to his aunty. It’s completely different to paying someone far less fortunate. Surrogacy isn’t black and white.

This is absolutely it. Surrogacy with a truly consenting woman is completely different to surrogacy in a developing country where it's just an opportunity to claw out of poverty. That's hugely risky to the woman's life and completely unethical.

@Lockdownbear no problem asking I would rather people ask. Yes if it was possible then I’d want to use same donor. I won’t be having another because if I’m honest it’s very gruelling going through IVF and I don’t think I could do it again.

@TheRebelle yes saddened as I am not responsible for the actions of others. They are not handing over a child though. I think agree to disagree with that one.

IVF is an exceptionally gruelling process with the chances after one cycle being about 25/30% success rate . Not saying abuse wouldn’t happen with a donor child but remember it’s one hell of a hard road to go down physically mentally and emotionally.

I actually hate the term “donor” they’re not a donor to the child, they’re a blood relation, they’re literally a part of them. These “donors” are giving their children away.

Emotive “Giving away your children” arguments is how you end up with gametes and embryos being treated as actual children with associated legal restrictions on women, even if said embryos/gametes are aneuploid and can’t create a child.

It also creates the opposite of what you want, which is that the “life begins at conception” types would like to force women to give embryos up for adoption rather than have them destroyed once they have finished their IVF treatment. It’s not an easy topic to resolve. Either they’re “children” or they are donated tissue. They cannot be both.

@tiggerwhocamefortea I do see what you’re saying but conceiving via donor sperm is something that we thought long and hard about it wasn’t taken as an easy decision. Maybe it was selfish of me and my husband to explore all medical avenues available l. Would you say the same if I had a one night stand and got pregnant with no way of contacting the father? I would know nothing of their DNA and heritage ?

I can only talk for myself but all I know is I will do everything I can to guide DS through life. If the time comes he wants to know more about the donor when he is older then we will explore it because as his parent I am here for him as is his dad.

I’m going to step away from this thread now.

@Lemonsandlemonade I've no doubt it would have been a difficult decision to use donor sperm. And I thank you for coming onto the thread.

I'm also an IVF mum, I ended up with a couple of spare embryos. I'd had very early loses not much older than those embryos that I'd broken my heart over. 💔. I'd never have given them for adoption it wouldn't have been right for me, they were far too precious to bin, so they went to "research" really used to train other embryologist to help other couples in the future.

@tiggerwhocamefortea
The people I know conceived via donors who are just reaching adulthood have serious mental health issues surrounding who they are and the decision forced upon them - especially in the case of single parenthood or same sex parenthood

I wonder if part of the issue is growing up in an unconventional family rather than the donor.
The other way people could look at it without the donor they just wouldn't be here.