Surrogacy makes me very uncomfortable

[HermioneKipper]

I was listening to Giovanna Fletcher’s podcast with H from Steps and hearing them talk about him using a surrogate for his twins made me feel very uncomfortable.

It’s essentially renting a woman’s body to buy a baby.

I understand the woman must’ve consented but she was paid and it doesn’t take into account the risk she was putting her body through. Pregnancy and childbirth is a huge strain on a woman’s body and she risks serious injury giving birth that she’ll have for life.

Even more so as she had twins which is even more dangerous.

And the babies taken away from their birth mother immediately. Who knows what harm it does to them.

It feels akin to the black market of buying and selling organs.

I know I have children so perhaps don’t have the right to comment but it doesn’t sit right with me.

Some parents may feel they want a baby that is genetically theirs. Others feel they don't want the issues that come with adoption, children with attachments issues who were neglected in the early stages. Very few babies come up for adoption in the UK

I completely understand why people wouldn't want to adopt. Completely.

Doesn't mean you therefore have a right to purchase a child that is genetically yours/a newborn though

The stance of 'no mother should have their child taken away from them the moment they give birth' makes me mildly uncomfortable. My older DB and I were horrifically abused by our bio parents - eventually taken into foster care and adopted. My bio mother fell pregnant again and social services judged that she wasn't fit to raise a child - so younger DB was also taken into foster care and adopted (we were all adopted by the same couple). I dread to think what would have happened if DB had been left with bio parents even for a few weeks.

The stance of 'no mother should have their child taken away from them the moment they give birth' makes me mildly uncomfortable

Not sure anyone has said that tbh.

@Thesandmanishere

The stance of 'no mother should have their child taken away from them the moment they give birth' makes me mildly uncomfortable

Not sure anyone has said that tbh.

They have further up in the thread!

@BlueMoons90

The stance of 'no mother should have their child taken away from them the moment they give birth' makes me mildly uncomfortable. My older DB and I were horrifically abused by our bio parents - eventually taken into foster care and adopted. My bio mother fell pregnant again and social services judged that she wasn't fit to raise a child - so younger DB was also taken into foster care and adopted (we were all adopted by the same couple). I dread to think what would have happened if DB had been left with bio parents even for a few weeks.

I think you've missed the nuance. It's that no baby should be removed from their mother at birth, not no mother should be removed from her baby. Of course some babies need to be removed at birth. But that is still a loss. I'm sorry for your experiences and very pleased it worked out well for you however.

They have further up in the thread!

Surely you can see the nuance though? Newborns are only forcibly removed from their mothers in extreme circumstances. Hence why it's so unusual to be able to adopt a very young baby. And even when it's necessary, it's not ideal - the trauma is there. Unavoidable, yes - ideal, no.

Surrogacy is choosing to inflict that trauma because someone has decided their want to have a baby of "their own" trumps the needs of the baby in question.

@CloseYourEyesAndSee I understand what you're saying. Maybe misread the tone of some of the replies on here. Thanks for explaining!

@ BlueMoons90 nobody actively said that no child should ever be removed from their parent at birth, people acknowledged though that removing a child is traumatic for that child, however in the case of adoption removing the child is for their safety/wellbeing. Whereas removing a surrogate child from its mother is purely for the selfish wants of the intended parent. And they are wants as hard as it is, nobody needs a child.

My partner was raised in foster care and his youngest sibling was removed for adoption at birth. She went on to have a healthy life with a family who loved her, there’s no question she was better off, but in an ideal world neither she or my DP and his other siblings would have had abusive parents in the first place. Iyswim?

@LiamGallagherIsHot

I agree OP. When rich women start being surrogates for poor women, I’ll listen to people who say it’s a ‘choice’. It’s dangerous for the woman, it’s unethical to create a child with the intention of taking it away from its bio mother. I could write pages on this subject and my experience of women that do it but these threads usually end up deleted.

^^this. 100%.

@spicedappledonuts

It is true that a child removed from a home after abusive incidents will have experienced more trauma than a new born removed as a baby.

But babies are sometimes removed at birth and it is recognized by everyone doing this that this is a trauma.
It is only done in extreme situations to protect the baby.

Deliberately creating a situation where you are going to inflict this trauma on a child to meet the needs of adults is a child protection issue.

Adults should not create situations which damage children to get their own emotional needs met.

This. Surrogacy is a horrific practice and the ‘consent’ involved is null and void when money changes hands. How many times is it stated and agreed on here that bought consent isn’t consent when it comes to sex work? So why is consent for surrogacy any different?

When rich women in the first world are having babies for poor women, I’ll believe there is altruism and genuine consent involved.

I can’t imagine the pain of infertility, but doing something so wrong should not be touted as a solution. Some problems can’t be solved and that’s utterly shit but no one has the right to a baby at the expense of someone else, and I include the baby’s wellbeing as well as the birth mother.

The sooner it’s outlawed in all circumstances the better.

@Gorl

It makes me uncomfortable too. It doesn’t seem to me that it’s a process which centres the needs of the baby. No baby is capable of consent, but if they were they wouldn’t consent to be taken from their birth mothers and given to strangers, regardless of how loving and nurturing those strangers were. It’s a process which prioritises the adult human’s need to be a parent over the rights of babies, and I find that hard to justify.

I’m less concerned about the element of ‘renting’ women’s bodies, because I think it’s something women can consent to. But I am very wary of the process being monetised, and I’m concerned about the way legislation is moving in this country to give surrogate parents greater rights over the unborn / newborn child. I think the process should be tightly controlled to ensure that 1) only truly altruistic surrogacy is permissible, to prevent any element of ‘buying’ babies and 2) that the birth mother has the right to refuse to proceed up to the moment that she agrees to sign adoption paperwork once the baby is born, with no financial penalties or repercussions.

I don’t doubt for a second that most surrogate parents are incredibly loving and perfectly capable of raising happy, beloved kids. But that doesn’t justify a process which is, in my view, inherently traumatising and problematic.

@Gorl you’ve summed up my feelings perfectly.

@DontStepOnTheMomeRathz

So if I had carried a baby for my sister, this would have been a bad and unethical thing to do?

I’ve been pregnant twice before. I am an educated person. There is no financial pressure or reward involved.

Stay out of my uterus indeed?

For me, the unethical one in this case would have been your sister. There's always a risk with pregnancy and asking somebody who is already a mum to take that risk to have a child that is not going to be their own is not fair on the children that they already have. So yes, wrong too.

Oh here we go. I suppose this doesn't count as virtue-signalling, does it? Never! Not when it's the "right" virtue.

@Lockheart

Oh good another thread on this topic, how original.

Please remember that there will be women who have been surrogates on this site and there will be parents on this site who have had their children through surrogacy.

Indeed. I suppose they're all "hand-maidens", puppets of the patriarchy with no single independent thought.🙄

Thing is too that you (op) are generalising all surrogacy (imho)
Not all surrogacy is paid, not all is asked for not all is actively sought
I was offered it genuinely out of the blue by my very close friend.
We paid genuine expenses - came to around £2000 maybe £1500 from memory?
Child care for her child, maternity clothes, I bought her shopping too ups and treats and paid her for the pre birth holiday days off work (holiday went on Mat leave 3 weeks before) and the 10% of salary for the 6 weeks after. Travel expenses for her mum to train down here then drive her back to hers for the 6 weeks
I’d never have thought of it (surrogacy) but if you’re offered to go thru a full pregnancy with a baby that’s genetically your husbands … and you’d been thru IUI and IVF to no avail … would you definitely say ‘no thanks! I’ll wait for 5 plus yrs to adopt a baby (which will have been with foster parents and poss parents too prior) with potentially FAS etc etc

Are you sure?

I don’t take offence from all the antis. I didn’t pay some random poor uneducated foreigner to do it.
My dds mum is a degree educated high flying exec on £68k currently
I mean I earn £25k lol

Oh and no god no. I won’t encourage my dd to come on here and assure you she feels unaffected and very much wanted by all 3 parents …
Cos she was also a smelly moody 15 yr old who i posted moaning about under this name 😂
She’d find alllllll that

@QOD

Thing is too that you (op) are generalising all surrogacy (imho) Not all surrogacy is paid, not all is asked for not all is actively sought I was offered it genuinely out of the blue by my very close friend. We paid genuine expenses - came to around £2000 maybe £1500 from memory? Child care for her child, maternity clothes, I bought her shopping too ups and treats and paid her for the pre birth holiday days off work (holiday went on Mat leave 3 weeks before) and the 10% of salary for the 6 weeks after. Travel expenses for her mum to train down here then drive her back to hers for the 6 weeks I’d never have thought of it (surrogacy) but if you’re offered to go thru a full pregnancy with a baby that’s genetically your husbands … and you’d been thru IUI and IVF to no avail … would you definitely say ‘no thanks! I’ll wait for 5 plus yrs to adopt a baby (which will have been with foster parents and poss parents too prior) with potentially FAS etc etc

Are you sure?

I don’t take offence from all the antis. I didn’t pay some random poor uneducated foreigner to do it.
My dds mum is a degree educated high flying exec on £68k currently
I mean I earn £25k lol

Genuine question - if your friend had died in childbirth or suffered life changing injuries, how would you have felt about that?

@QOD

Oh and no god no. I won’t encourage my dd to come on here and assure you she feels unaffected and very much wanted by all 3 parents … Cos she was also a smelly moody 15 yr old who i posted moaning about under this name 😂 She’d find alllllll that

She may well feel unaffected now but the discussion is about the trauma of the newborn, in that moment. Does the fact that they can’t remember it when they grow up make it all ok, as long as the adults involved get what they want?

ALL surrogacy is questionable.

It plans the taking away of a baby from the mother at birth.

This will produce inevitable questions about identity at some point.

And even altruistic surrogacy hass issues with emotional blackmail, coercion and difficult relationships in future.

It is not a crisis situation where its in the best interests of the child to be removed. Its always about the wants of the parent before the needs of the child. And before the health of the woman giving birth who very much puts herself on the line.

However you look at it.

And anyone who does decide to go for it, must live with the knowledge that they are putting that first.

Any parent who is prepared to do that raises massive red flags about seeing children as a possession and women as mere incubators.

I wouldn't have a lot of time for anyone I knew who had go down the surrogacy route.

Not all surrogacy is like that bullshit is merely trying to justify the unjustifiable because someone wants a baby and has lost all sight of putting a child central and instead its all about the wants of a parent.

Its baby trafficking.

[quote HermioneKipper]@lynntheyresexpeople Oh do go away and hassle people on another thread. You’ve made your point. Although I disagree.

I am allowed to raise valid ethical concerns about the safety of women and children on a parenting forum.

You’re clearly far too precious if you can’t read anything without throwing your toys out of the pram[/quote]
If standing up for those who your nasty thread has effected, is throwing my toys out the pram, so be it.

Dreadful
but we talked about it, this risk, because we aren’t stupid. We took out life insurance for her (has to be taken out at least from memory 6 months pre pregnancy)
She also made clear her son would go to his father who knew what was happening and had spoken to all her family members
She’s not an idiot. Had been thru pregnancy and made her offer with all this thought out

We didn’t say yes immediately believe it or not. We went thru allllll thé feels.
Why ? But why ? How will we do this ? Does dh want to do this ? What do our families think ? What about hers (she’d already spoken to them) does her son know? His dad ?
What if the child is disabled/she changes her mind/so many scenarios

We said if she kept the baby we’d go for shared custody/visitation as it’s dh child and planned

She joined my go surgery and we went and spoke to the gp and practice midwife. Would they support us ? (Yes)
Spoke to COTS who have a leaflet about the legal
Route to a parental order….

We hadn’t reached the end of our journey so weren’t then considering adoption - and then what would that be like ? Would that child have disabilities/developmental delays …

@lynntheyresexpeople if anyone has been upset by this thread perhaps they aren’t quite as comfortable with what they have chosen to do as they may like to think. Surely anyone who is confident that surrogacy is morally decent and has no detrimental effects on the baby or the birth mother, shouldn’t be upset?

What gives people the right to have other peoples’ opinions silenced just because they don’t like being called out?