Surrogacy makes me very uncomfortable

[HermioneKipper]

I was listening to Giovanna Fletcher’s podcast with H from Steps and hearing them talk about him using a surrogate for his twins made me feel very uncomfortable.

It’s essentially renting a woman’s body to buy a baby.

I understand the woman must’ve consented but she was paid and it doesn’t take into account the risk she was putting her body through. Pregnancy and childbirth is a huge strain on a woman’s body and she risks serious injury giving birth that she’ll have for life.

Even more so as she had twins which is even more dangerous.

And the babies taken away from their birth mother immediately. Who knows what harm it does to them.

It feels akin to the black market of buying and selling organs.

I know I have children so perhaps don’t have the right to comment but it doesn’t sit right with me.

I also think there are many potential issues with a family surrogacy.

What if there are health issues arising from the pregnancy?

How are relationships handled in the family as the child grows up? How does the child really feel about all that?

Organ donation is life or death. This isn’t.

A friend of mine was a surrogate for her best friend. She had an easy pregnancy previously, is well off and did it out of kindness. Not her egg and she was ok handing baby over as she never thought of him as hers. She was spooked by a pretty complicated time and a major hemorrhage after Labour so wouldn't do it again

@honeylulu

I have some unease about it, as I do with most issues that commoditise women's bodies. As PPs have said if the bio mother is in need of the money the "choice" element is somewhat eroded.

But our neighbours (male married couple) have a daughter born through surrogacy (in Russia where one of the dads is from) and they are such a lovely family and great parents. The little girl is such a happy child. It was really important for them and they feel so fortunate they were able to fulfil their wish. My husband and I have remarked to each other that she is a lucky child to be so loved and cherished that we'd quite like next door to adopt us as well (joke!)

So ... I don't know...

Again, surrogacy is a human rights issue.

Can you imagine someone on Mumsnet 300 years ago, had it existed then, saying something like...

I have some unease about families selling their children into slavery, as I do with most issues that commoditise children. As PPs have said if the bio mother is in need of the money the "choice" element is somewhat eroded.

But our neighbours (two men) have a lovely slave from Russia (Russia is where one of the men is from) and they are such a lovely household and are such responsible slave owners. The little slave girl is such a happy member of the household. It was really important for them and they feel so fortunate they were able to fulfil their wish.

My husband and I have remarked to each other that she is a lucky child to be in such a well off household, so appreciated and so far away from the poverty she would have lived in otherwise, that we'd quite like next door to enslave us as well (joke!)

But we know this was not the full picture of slavery, was it? And, the family next door are not the full picture of surrogacy.

And that bigger picture matters, it really does.

I'll recommend, again, the audio of this talk. It's truly eye-opening. You won't see surrogacy the same again.

filia.org.uk/latest-news/2019/11/8/surrogacy-a-human-rights-violation-filia-conference-2019

[quote fantastaballs]@YouTubeAddict

I wasn't the first person to even raise the comparison of tiger Cubs being removed from their mother at birth so Well Done You for not reading the whole thread.

There are actual studies that show 100% that a baby recognises it's mother's voice, language pattern, taste, smell and even the way she walks . The baby does not recognise ANYTHING about a genetic donor when it's born. The baby looks to it's mother for comfort and nourishment and security. To create a baby with the express intent of severing the only bond it has at birth is monstrous. [/quote]
Thanks for congratulating me for reading the entire thread…I did. Cheers for that.

As for your second point, I haven’t read these studies. However, I still feel that surrogate babies can have a loving and fulfilling life. Plus, you’re also being (by default) very disparaging about adoptive babies/families.

@Lockheart

Oh good another thread on this topic, how original.

Please remember that there will be women who have been surrogates on this site and there will be parents on this site who have had their children through surrogacy.

Surely discussion is good? It is a very important conversation that should be ongoing no matter which side of the debate you are on.

*Women pay surrogates too.
Women pay for sperm.

This is not a male/female thing.

It’s also no one else’s business but the people involved.*

Sigh. Yes, it IS a female thing - men aren't the ones going through bloody pregnancy and childbirth! Giving up their body to nurture another family's baby for 9 months. The extreme hormone fluctuations, the often permanent bodily damage.

A bloke having a wank into a cup isn't risky at all!

I’m not sure how I feel about donated sperm either, but if people can’t tell the difference between donating sperm and carrying a pregnancy to term then we really have problems.

There were people who had slaves during the debates on emancipation, those debates still needed to happen.

It is an emotive subject but standing by and saying nothing in the face of child trafficking isn't an option I want to take.

I'm sure people who have chosen surrogacy are comfortable with the decision that they have made and are able to defend it to themselves and others.
That doesn't mean society shouldn't have a wider debate and what we are allowing as a group.

@YouTubeAddict

Maybe you could, oh I don't know.... use google to find and read some studies or even articles on the subject? Because unlike you , i am not weighing in on a subject after pulling an opinion out of thin air. I have actually read things from both sides and actually agree with surrogacy when I was younger and more naïve. Learning some critical thinking skills and doing some proper research rapidly changed my mind.

"Although all the sensory systems start developing in utero; but the development of the sense of smell predominates in early fetal life. Babies recognize their mother's scent even before they are born. Your baby is biologically and genetically programmed to connect to you through your unique smell. The process of development of olfactory cells (cells responsible for the sense of smell) begins as soon as the first trimester of pregnancy. The fetus breathes and swallows the amniotic fluid in utero. The ongoing development of the fetus helps him/her in recognizing the unique smell of his / her mother."

www.washington.edu/news/2013/01/02/while-in-womb-babies-begin-learning-language-from-their-mothers/

Honestly, all of this Information is online. It starts in journals and then articles are worn about them. You don't need to have a degree to be able to read about the subject you are arguing in favour of.

And at no point have I been disparaging about adopted people or parents. It's a very sad situation and I'm delighted that children that need to be adopted often ARE adopted instead of being in care etc. But that doesn't mean that all Those Corden have happy outcomes. Because again, statistics say otherwise.

It’s grotesque.

I do have ethical issues with donation of eggs and sperm too but comparing sperm donation to surrogacy is an absolute straw man. A few minutes masturbating into a collection cup for storage and eventual anonymous donation of gametes (though obviously there is the option for offspring to find donors now) is in no way directly comparable to undergoing insemination, pregnancy and birth of a baby. Pregnancy and birth are still a risky business for women and babies, physically speaking and research has shown so much about bonding and the importance of the ‘fourth trimester’ in emotional development that I cannot believe surrogacy is even an option.

As for the ‘if you don’t agree with surrogacy then you don’t agree with adoption at birth’ argument . They are two different situations. Babies are removed into state custody at birth in extreme circumstances because the safety and wellbeing of the child is at risk. It is felt that the trauma of separating the newborn from their mother is less than leaving him/her in an abusive/high risk environment. This is absolutely not the case in surrogacy and it is ignorant to try to connect the two.

None of your business.

Child protection is everyone's business.

As for your second point, I haven’t read these studies. However, I still feel that surrogate babies can have a loving and fulfilling life. Plus, you’re also being (by default) very disparaging about adoptive babies/families. it is important to recognise that removing a baby, any baby, from its mother at birth is going to be traumatic for that baby, even if that is for the purposes of adoption. The difference between adoption and surrogacy however is that the baby is removed for its own wellbeing and safety, and the adoptive parent has been put forward as someone who can provide that home for the baby. Acknowledging where the baby came from and the start they had in life isn’t being disparaging of adoption, it’s recognising the reasons behind adoption while still acknowledging the trauma which surrounds it.

Removing a surrogate baby from its mother at birth however is done purely for the benefit of the intended parents, the people who feel that surrogacy is the only way they will have a child. It’s also important to recognise that many parents don’t want to go down the route of adoption precisely because they don’t feel they are equipped to deal with a child with severe emotional and attachment issues, but are quite happy to do the same to a newborn which has been produced to order.

In essence, adoption is done for the benefit of the child, surrogacy is done for the benefit of the adult.

@lynntheyresexpeople perhaps if you’re so sensitive you shouldn’t be on AIBU?

You don’t know anything about whether I found it easy to conceive or that I had multiple miscarriages beforehand.

The fact I had a very difficult pregnancy is entirely relevant to my post. I doubt very much anyone would’ve killed to be in my shoes during my pregnancy. I lost 2 stone and ended up in hospital 7 times with severe dehydration as I couldn’t keep anything down even sips of water. This went on until week 30 of my pregnancy. I was signed off work for 6 months and couldn’t get out of bed for most of it. I also suffered from severe diastis recti and have ongoing problems as a result.

And this was for very much wanted babies of my own. I couldn’t imagine some other poor woman going through what I did only to have to give up the babies immediately in a cloud of hormones, bleeding, leaking milk and goodness knows what else. And that’s assuming she had an easy birth.

I’m not trying to be cruel to anyone who’s used or been a surrogate. Raising concerns for the women and babies involved is extremely valid and questions should be able to be asked about the ethics around surrogacy and whether women are being exploited.

Who are you to try and shut another woman out of a conversation around a subject that affects so many others

The hypocrisy of some people never fails to amaze me. In any discussion about abortion there are endless posts defending to the death a woman’s right to do what the hell she likes with her own body and everyone else should butt out. Yet here apparently a woman’s bodily autonomy should be removed because other people don’t approve of her choice. The double standards are mind blowing.

Yet here apparently a woman’s bodily autonomy should be removed because other people don’t approve of her choice. The double standards are mind blowing.

Nope not at all.

Money and desperation clearly play an enormous part in these decisions. People are rightly questioning to what degree being a surrogate would be a free choice for any woman. Plus we have the well being of the child to consider.

@longerevenings

Child protection is everyone's business.

This!

Law and safeguards exist not for the lovely stories where everything goes well and everyone is happy… it’s for when things go wrong and to prevent exploitation of babies and women.

When vulnerable women are financially coerced or emotionally pressured to do something that could cause them harm.
When babies are born with disabilities and the commissioning parents change their mind.
When commissioning parents split up and no longer want the baby.
Where parents can commission multiple surrogates to get the gender they want.
Where paedophiles can commission babies as commodities.
When the surrogate’s health is impacted and needs a termination but the commissioning parents disagree.
When the commissioning parents want a termination but the surrogate doesn’t agree.
When the surrogate suffers severe birth injuries, life changing complications or death…

As a wider society there needs to be responsible and objective protections for babies and the women taking all the risks to birth them. This must always trump the rights of prospective parents, however hard and distressing their experiences have been.

@Blossomtoes

The hypocrisy of some people never fails to amaze me. In any discussion about abortion there are endless posts defending to the death a woman’s right to do what the hell she likes with her own body and everyone else should butt out. Yet here apparently a woman’s bodily autonomy should be removed because other people don’t approve of her choice. The double standards are mind blowing.

@Blossomtoes

If someone was paying poor women and/or emotionally coercing their sisters to have abortions, your comparison would be valid.

Go throw your pathetic straw man on the fire.

Yet here apparently a woman’s bodily autonomy should be removed because other people don’t approve of her choice

Is surrogacy bodily autonomy though? Especially when you have poor, desperate women who feel it is the only option for whatever reason.

Like anything with women's bodies, it isn’t always a free choice. If a women “chooses” to sell her body, whether sex work or surrogacy, because she can’t pay her rent or feed her children, is that bodily autonomy? If she is coerced into sex or more children by her husband, is that bodily autonomy?

Free choice is rarely made in a vacuum.

Taking a newborn baby away from its mother should only be done as a last resort. It's fucking cruel to the baby. It doesn't know it's been purchased.

Money and desperation clearly play an enormous part in these decisions

In every case? That’s clear in every surrogate birth? It’s quite obviously not the case with altruistic surrogacy.

So, not only do we deny women bodily autonomy when it suits them, but we infantilise them and tell them they can’t choose for themselves because they’re poor. This just gets worse.

Even if you accept that adults have the right to use and sell any part of their body as they wish ( which isn't legally the case anywhere) Selling body parts isn't legal.

It still doesn't address the child protection issues.
The child trafficking which has both moral concerns and practical ones.

The hypocrisy of some people never fails to amaze me. In any discussion about abortion there are endless posts defending to the death a woman’s right to do what the hell she likes with her own body and everyone else should butt out. Yet here apparently a woman’s bodily autonomy should be removed because other people don’t approve of her choice. The double standards are mind blowing. but this isn’t just about bodily autonomy is it? It’s about bringing another human being into the world, it’s also about women who are exploited for their ability to bear children for the childless, because they live in abject poverty for instance or even because of the pressure on them to “do the right thing.”

Even on this thread anyone who dares to criticise surrogacy is told that they’re being insensitive to the infertile and how dare they have an opinion if they’ve never been through infertility, therefore it’s entirely likely that this kind of pressure follows through families even, where e.g. a woman has fertility issues and knows that her sister can have children, there is almost certainly an unspoken pressure felt by the sister to “do the right thing” and to give that woman the ability to have a child. After all, she doesn’t know what it’s like to be infertile..”

As for abortion, the woman’s right to bodily autonomy is actually removed at 24 weeks because at that point the baby is viable and therefor it is not considered to be ethical to terminate the pregnancy.

So no, this has nothing to do with bodily autonomy and everything to do with the reasons and understanding behind the process.

There are women who are willing prostitutes, yet we still criticise the sex industry because of what it stands for. Women who are happy to star in porn, and again, we criticise that fact because the industry turns women into commodities. Surrogacy is just yet another example of where women are exploited for their ability to provide something, even if they do do it willingly.

In every case? That’s clear in every surrogate birth? It’s quite obviously not the case with altruistic surrogacy.

It doesn’t have to be in every case to be an enormous ethical problem. But we have to ask ourselves, are privileged women from rich countries, with lots of options open to them lining up to be paid surrogates? No they aren’t.

Altruistic surrogacy has its own issues, I posted about my concerns there earlier in the thread.

@HermioneKipper who are YOU to create a thread for your own enjoyment, when you are more than aware it will hurt so many people.

You still managed what so many cannot. Be grateful for that, and stop making goady threads for absolutely no reason. I hope purposely upsetting people helps you sleep at night.