Surrogacy makes me very uncomfortable

[HermioneKipper]

I was listening to Giovanna Fletcher’s podcast with H from Steps and hearing them talk about him using a surrogate for his twins made me feel very uncomfortable.

It’s essentially renting a woman’s body to buy a baby.

I understand the woman must’ve consented but she was paid and it doesn’t take into account the risk she was putting her body through. Pregnancy and childbirth is a huge strain on a woman’s body and she risks serious injury giving birth that she’ll have for life.

Even more so as she had twins which is even more dangerous.

And the babies taken away from their birth mother immediately. Who knows what harm it does to them.

It feels akin to the black market of buying and selling organs.

I know I have children so perhaps don’t have the right to comment but it doesn’t sit right with me.

[quote Babyghirl]@CounsellorTroi
Eccepting is never an easy option until you go through every avenue to get the family you dream off. I won't give up on a dream I have had from I was younger if people where to give up on everything they could not achieve life would be pointless.[/quote]
I never said it was easy. It was hard. I explored every option I felt comfortable with.

From the child's POV I'm not sure that egg/sperm/Embryo donation should be allowed.

I know I found the decision tough on what to do with my 'spare' embryos, those wee sparks of life, which had held so much hope. But I really didn't like the idea of them being incubated and raised by someone else. I later realised I was too old to donate them anyway however it wasn't an option for me.
Tbh I wouldn't have wanted a donated embryo or egg either.

Where is this assumption that surrogate babies are ripped away from their birth mother the second they are born coming from? That’s not how it works in practise most of the time.

And again. Where are all these surrogate children who have been born as a result of surrogacy who want to correct those who have objections to the practice by telling them what wonderful lives they’ve had? Why don’t we see them come on to threads like these or even be featured in programmes about surrogacy? Could it be because once the products of these practices start speaking out the world will have to sit up and take notice rather than bend to the will of the infertile to get their baby at all costs (sometimes literally) and without any consideration for anyone but themselves?

The laws around egg and sperm donation were changed to enable the products of donated eggs/sperm to trace their biological heritage at the age of 18, and that was done because so many children born of egg/sperm donation felt that they had no identities of their own as they didn’t know where they came from and felt something in their lives were missing.

I don’t believe for a second that surrogate children don’t feel the same. But clearly they either feel they’re not permitted to speak out because the rights of the infertile must be considered over everything else, or they are deliberately silenced because of the hurt that their speaking out could potentially cause.

Surrogacy: What You Need To Know. Interview explaining why surrogacy is exploitative with Lexi from Stop Surrogacy Now and Jan Williams from Object!

[quote lynntheyresexpeople]@fantastaballs so I assume you're against adoption then? A newborn being taken from the woman who carried them, is much better than keeping a baby with an unfit parent so as not to "take their rights".
A toddler In a nurturing loving environment won't remember being in the womb. Don't be so ridiculous. You do not have to give birth or carry a child to be a mother. [/quote]
In the vast majority of cases the mother never intended to get pregnant and is unable to keep the baby. Or the mothers circumscribed have vastly changed and they can't keep the baby. I don't know of any adoption cases where the mother intentionally got pregnant, to gestate and birth a child only to give it away to people that aren't vetted or even legally checked to be suitable. Adoption is always a very sad thing for the child but can still have a happy outcome in some cases. But it's "making the best of a bad situation" and is not in any way the same as actually containing a woman to create a child to order with the excited intent to separate that baby from its actual biological mother.

Surrogacy ALL about the prospective parents and the surrogate. It's not at all, ever about what is best for the baby or surrogacy would not exist.

@fantastaballs ‘adoption is always a sad thing for the child’

What nonsense. I was adopted and am an adoptive parent. Neither of us are even remotely sad about it.

@WoMandalorian

I don't see why it's any different than a woman doing any physically difficult job for money though... Miners essentially sold their bodies for money. Lots of other jobs harm the body day in day out all their working lives. Not just 9 months. Also agree the baby being removed from mum is the exact same as adoption so don't see the problem with that. It's better than adoption as they are handed straight over to a couple that want them.

Isn't there a lot of assessment of prospective parents for fostering and adoption? Does the same happen for surrogate parents?

[quote owlbethere]@fantastaballs ‘adoption is always a sad thing for the child’

What nonsense. I was adopted and am an adoptive parent. Neither of us are even remotely sad about it.[/quote]
Really?
You're an adopter but you don't acknowledge the sadness for your DC of being adopted?
That's worrying

I used to be comfortable but I’m not anymore.

I don’t think a newborn baby should be viewed as a gift, to be created to be given away.

@CounsellorTroi

That baby may be your genetic material but surely you understand that that poor baby doesn't and won't recognise YOU as their mother? In surrogacy, The mother is the person whose body sustained that embryo, grew that baby and the woman whose breathing, heart beat, taste and smell they recognise. You will be a total stranger to them. As a species we don't recognise our genetic material in other people if we don't know we are related. That baby will be an absolute stranger to you and all it will want is the woman that grew it and nurtured it. To intentionally create a life where the first act will be to separate it from everything it knows is brutal.

But hey, I bet all the people that are A ok with surrogacy agreed with Joe exotic farming tigers to pull the Cubs from their mum at minutes old? At least he did it under the false guise of "education" instead of purchasing them outright by giving the mum a zebra leg and just hoping she didn't die.

why is surrogacy banned completely in civilised countries like France Germany Spain Italy? because it is not civilised it is not a good answer to infertility no one has a right to a child,
I'm also not convinced re donor egg / sperm donation either especially not annoymous

[quote owlbethere]@fantastaballs ‘adoption is always a sad thing for the child’

What nonsense. I was adopted and am an adoptive parent. Neither of us are even remotely sad about it.[/quote]
I'm very glad that you had a wonderful outcome and that you have gone on to adopt yourselves. It's a truly beautiful thing to do. What I meant what at the point of adoption. It can never be a positive thing that a child can't stay with its mother. It should be sad. And yes, some children have wonderful lives with their new parents but some most certainly do not. I know a man that was adopted and returned. Ended up in care for his whole life with the occasional foster placement. He was sexually abused and now lives in a tent in a quarry all year around as he can't function. But he fathered 8 kids with his wife (who he met in care) and they to have been in and out of the care system. Both of my sisters also work in children's homes and around half of their charges are either products of the care system, or been given up for adoption. The other half are CSE cases or special needs.

It's very naive to suggest that ALL additions are a positive thing. Because of that was true there wouldn't be a whole genre of tv programmes about people trying to find family, and the damage done to them.

[quote fantastaballs]@CounsellorTroi

That baby may be your genetic material but surely you understand that that poor baby doesn't and won't recognise YOU as their mother? In surrogacy, The mother is the person whose body sustained that embryo, grew that baby and the woman whose breathing, heart beat, taste and smell they recognise. You will be a total stranger to them. As a species we don't recognise our genetic material in other people if we don't know we are related. That baby will be an absolute stranger to you and all it will want is the woman that grew it and nurtured it. To intentionally create a life where the first act will be to separate it from everything it knows is brutal.

But hey, I bet all the people that are A ok with surrogacy agreed with Joe exotic farming tigers to pull the Cubs from their mum at minutes old? At least he did it under the false guise of "education" instead of purchasing them outright by giving the mum a zebra leg and just hoping she didn't die. [/quote]
I think you must have meant to address this to someone else? I don’t agree with surrogacy.

What nonsense. I was adopted and am an adoptive parent. Neither of us are even remotely sad about it. it is naive to think that adoption is born out of anything other than unfortunate circumstances. Either a mother who is unable to bring up a child, or as in the vast majority of cases in the UK, where a child is either being or is at serious risk of harm and is removed for their own safety. To say that a child wouldn’t be sad about that appears incredibly crass.

In fact I would be concerned that your child might not feel free to discuss their circumstances with you if the vibe you give off is that their adoption is nothing to be sad about. These “long lost families” programs exist for a reason as does the fact that so many adults attempt to find their birth families. And now we have letterbox contact which means that adopted children always retain a link to their birth family if they want that.

While adopted children obviously can and do have positive adoption experiences, and the adoption for them can be a positive experience, the fact that they are adopted in the first place is not and never should be seen as such.

@nolongersurprised

I used to be comfortable but I’m not anymore.

I don’t think a newborn baby should be viewed as a gift, to be created to be given away.

This.

Essentially renting a woman's womb in a country where it's okay to pay for surrogacy, is VERY different to a best friend or sister carrying a baby for someone, out of love for that person.

I'm not entirely comfortable with the former. I don't think it's in any way bad for the baby, but do think it could be extraordinarily distressing for the surrogate mother. I wouldn't judge people who have had a baby in this way because they were unable to have their own child. I WOULD judge someone who had a baby in this way because they simply didn't fancy carrying their own child again (I don't know if you read an article posted on here about a 21 year old Russian woman with an extremely wealthy husband, who already had around 11 babies born through surrogates due to not enjoying her first (and only) pregnancy. I do, though, imagine these cases are extemely rare.

The latter I think is absolutely lovely. Short of dying for someone, I don't think there's a more selfless thing you could do for a dear friend or relative who was struggling with infertility. To me, it's on par with donating an organ (and very similar morally) and nobody would claim that was wrong, surely?

[quote fantastaballs]@CounsellorTroi

That baby may be your genetic material but surely you understand that that poor baby doesn't and won't recognise YOU as their mother? In surrogacy, The mother is the person whose body sustained that embryo, grew that baby and the woman whose breathing, heart beat, taste and smell they recognise. You will be a total stranger to them. As a species we don't recognise our genetic material in other people if we don't know we are related. That baby will be an absolute stranger to you and all it will want is the woman that grew it and nurtured it. To intentionally create a life where the first act will be to separate it from everything it knows is brutal.

But hey, I bet all the people that are A ok with surrogacy agreed with Joe exotic farming tigers to pull the Cubs from their mum at minutes old? At least he did it under the false guise of "education" instead of purchasing them outright by giving the mum a zebra leg and just hoping she didn't die. [/quote]
How do you know that the baby won’t recognise the bio mum as its mum. I’ve got no recollection of being in the womb yet I still feel a huge attachment to my mum, what a weird thing for you to say Do you have any memories of being in the womb?

There’s also no need to derail a thread with issues around Joe Exotic, that’s also rather bizarre. Are you feeling ok today?

It makes me uncomfortable too.

To me it's absolutely a feminist issue - it's about women's value to society being linked to their bodies (see also: porn, prostitution). There might be lots of positive, heartwarming stories about selfless women being surrogates for beloved sisters but that doesn't mean that surrogacy as a whole isn't unethical.

I also find it completely repugnant when you hear of celebrities who already have children - Kim and Kanye, Robbie Williams and his wife - hiring surrogates to have even more!! It's understandable (though I don't personally agree) when people turn to surrogacy due to lack of any alternative - but how on earth can you justify it when you already have children? It's just the height of entitlement.

@YouTubeAddict

I wasn't the first person to even raise the comparison of tiger Cubs being removed from their mother at birth so Well Done You for not reading the whole thread.

There are actual studies that show 100% that a baby recognises it's mother's voice, language pattern, taste, smell and even the way she walks . The baby does not recognise ANYTHING about a genetic donor when it's born. The baby looks to it's mother for comfort and nourishment and security. To create a baby with the express intent of severing the only bond it has at birth is monstrous.

Its sanitised baby trafficking with good PR agents.

If it wasn't about exploiting the poor and completely altrustic, why aren't virtue signalling hollywood stars only the beneficiaries of surrogacy and not the ones popping out babies for poor women?

I have a very low opinion of anyone who buys a baby. Regardless of how sad their sob story is. Mainly because the stories of the women they buy from are almost always far worse.

I have some unease about it, as I do with most issues that commoditise women's bodies. As PPs have said if the bio mother is in need of the money the "choice" element is somewhat eroded.

But our neighbours (male married couple) have a daughter born through surrogacy (in Russia where one of the dads is from) and they are such a lovely family and great parents. The little girl is such a happy child. It was really important for them and they feel so fortunate they were able to fulfil their wish. My husband and I have remarked to each other that she is a lucky child to be so loved and cherished that we'd quite like next door to adopt us as well (joke!)

So ... I don't know...

But our neighbours (male married couple) have a daughter born through surrogacy (in Russia where one of the dads is from) and they are such a lovely family and great parents. The little girl is such a happy child. It was really important for them and they feel so fortunate they were able to fulfil their wish.

What about the bio mum in all this though? Where’s her story?

honeylulu
Very nice for your neighbours, maybe not so great for a girl who will never know who her mother is - and she probably has two to complicate things.

You may not think that matters, but what if she does?

There's nothing charming or heartwarming about buying babies and renting women's bodies to gestate them.

You are not allowed to remove puppies or kittens from their mothers at birth. It's very disturbing that people have less regard for the well-being of human babies.