To feel I can’t holiday abroad again?

[backoffice]

I feel really guilty using air travel (although it’s so easy!) and used to travel by train through Europe wherever I could. Had a lovely trip planned in 2020 taking in several countries - but all went to pot!

Inter-Europe travel feels very dodgy now with Covid and lack of fresh air etc in carriages. Planes feel safer (shorter trips and good air circulation) but I’m too guilt-ridden because of the environmental impact. Cruises seem just as bad!

I can’t see a way of planning a safe and ethical holiday abroad now. AIBU? How are people justifying it?

No they don’t feel it’s right to bring children into the world we’ve got (especially post Covid). Without wanting to out myself, we live in an area that’s really suffered with flooding in recent times so it’s very raw for them.

@Marni83 they are JUST about adults. Most of us were "eww" at thought of having kids at 18-19🤷🏻
If they stick to ut until 30, then I eill belive the convictions

@backoffice

No they don’t feel it’s right to bring children into the world we’ve got (especially post Covid). Without wanting to out myself, we live in an area that’s really suffered with flooding in recent times so it’s very raw for them.

What’s covid got to do with out of interest?

[quote Annoyedanddissapointed]@Marni83 they are JUST about adults. Most of us were "eww" at thought of having kids at 18-19🤷🏻
If they stick to ut until 30, then I eill belive the convictions[/quote]
Oh I didn’t realise!

In any event

I would be devastated my children view the world so negatively and bleakly

This though brings us back to... 20 years ago, there were already big talks about climate change

Covid has brought home the realities of a global pandemic and how the risk of those has now increased - and what that means (that your life can unexpectedly get ripped out from under you!).

This is the second time in a few weeks I’ve heard someone say that their children don’t want to bring children into this world for reasons such as climate change.

I decided I didn’t want to bring children into the world a generation ago . I wonder - was I ahead of my time in foresight or despair?

Seriously OP, you can only do your best. Trying to be the most climate-friendly person is like trying to be the perfect Christian - you fail by virtue of being alive, and guilt is utterly useless. And exhausting.

I don’t have kids or a tumble dryer, I don’t drive if I can help it and I hate flying, but I’m sure my book and stationery addiction is killing the planet somehow.

Cycle ?

Boat ?

Hitch hike (please don't do that)

Car share with someone already going there

Electric car ?

Walking holiday ?

@backoffice

Covid has brought home the realities of a global pandemic and how the risk of those has now increased - and what that means (that your life can unexpectedly get ripped out from under you!).

But that was always the case. Life can be “ripped” from beneath you with a terminal diagnosis, car accident… I could go on

I've flown twice this summer, but obviously hadn't flown the year before so it averages as once a year, which is not too bad I think.
I'm not sure I agree with you about air quality in planes versus trains. In old fashioned trains you can open windows at least and international trains are much bigger. The main reason I flew this year was price. I had to get as cheap as possible because there was a chance I'd have to cancel because of Covid rules and I had to pay a lot of extra money on tests.

"If you take the train instead of a plane will the plane actually not fly to the destination?"

Yes, planes only fly when quite full so if there's less demand there are fewer flights.

"If you stay at home in a dark cupboard wearing only clothes that you have knitted yourself from rope made of homegrown courgettes and existing on a diet of rainwater will the planes still fly?"

If a few people did that, fewer planes would fly. It's not the kind of world I'd want to live in, but it's true.

Rent electric power camper van

OP, I think it's really encouraging that you're considering the ethical implications of your travels!

Have you looked into taking a night train? DH and I traveled by nighttrain this summer (we're not in the UK) and it was bliss. We had our own sleeping cabin so didn't have to be worry about beind closely surrounded by strangers. You'd just need to take the Eurostar to Brussels and from there you could take a direct night train to Vienna for example.

@accentdusoleil

Cycle ?

Boat ?

Hitch hike (please don't do that)

Car share with someone already going there

Electric car ?

Walking holiday ?

Some of these are not realistic options for going abroad. A walking holiday doesn't normally mean you walk to get there. You go there via a faster means of transport and walk when you're there.

For anyone who has motion sickness boat and car are out. I would never be able to cycle and walk abroad - it would take so long my annual leave would have run out and I don't think you'd have enough charging points to take an electric car a long way including isolated areas.

The obvious answer is cheaper and faster trains and for places where a train is not practical, minimal use of flying.
The biggest flyers are business people. Tourist flights are tiny in comparison.

@Alaimo

OP, I think it's really encouraging that you're considering the ethical implications of your travels!

Have you looked into taking a night train? DH and I traveled by nighttrain this summer (we're not in the UK) and it was bliss. We had our own sleeping cabin so didn't have to be worry about beind closely surrounded by strangers. You'd just need to take the Eurostar to Brussels and from there you could take a direct night train to Vienna for example.

I looked into the Vienna to Brussels train option this summer, but decided it wasn't for me because I'm not one of those people who can sleep anywhere. Being awake for such a long journey would be pretty awful I think. It's a good option for some though. The plans for a sleeper train between Brussels and Malmo have recently been shelved because no operator put in an offer.

It would take 36 hours of train travel each way for me to visit my parents, so I’m going to continue flying and not feel a shred of guilt.

Make your choices and stand by them, but agonizing over them is just silly and attention seeking.

Yes, planes only fly when quite full so if there's less demand there are fewer flights.

Maybe now with Covid. I can confirm to you that only about 30% of the flights I take for work are ‘quite full’. I’m on a lot of commuter flights outside of the Monday am/Friday pm full ones, and they’re always pretty empty during term time. They still fly - before covid they didn’t cancel flights if the planes weren’t full. Not the regular routes anyway.

Like a PP, I’m also in Germany where people do their family’s weekly shop with hand pulled carts and bike-attached ‘children carts’ full to the brim with food. You can definitely transport a weekly shop for 5 in there. I doubt many of these climate-rally-going teenagers would go shopping like that, or refuse to buy any new clothes or tech unless it’s strictly necessary.

Like you yourself said OP, life can vanish out the window any minute now. I want to live it responsibly but that doesn’t need to equate living it miserably.

@EileenGC hoe is recycling yhere? Because from what I understand UK is quite behind. I remember growing up in another EU country, and going to massive recycle bins around the corner. Flatten the plastic bottles and stuff was weekly chore. And glass bottles are returnable (like beer for example) with deposit on them.

@Chamonixshoopshoop

It’s not as simply as aviation bad everything else, good. Do your research, find low carbon airlines (virgin is pretty good), with more efficient engines. 200 people on a plane vs 200 cars travelling to the south of France for example, in a new greener plane, the plane wins on eco stakes.

Train would be a better comparator. And would every car only have one person in it?

@Alaimo

You'd just need to take the Eurostar to Brussels

The vast, vast majority of the population are not within walking distance of the Eurostar.

@parietal

go with the trains.

I'm also surprised that people don't think about climate when booking holidays abroad. they may fuss about organic food and not using plastic bags at the supermarket, but then fly 2 or 3 times a year just for fun. when flying has a MUCH bigger impact than all the other things.

what will it take to make people see flying as an antisocial activity?

I do think about the climate, but planes are usually much cheaper than the trains... I do usually take the train for manageable distances eg the Eurostar, Thalys between France and Belgium, but for somewhere like Greece I'd fly.

we've been told we have maybe 8 years to avoid catastrophic planet wide events that will kill thousands upon thousands of people

It might sound sociopathic but people dying will be good for the planet

@Marcee

How can I GAF?

I cant afford to go abroad it's not something on my radar.
I last time went abroad about 3 years ago. And I might get another chance in another couple of years.

So if in a couple of years I get the chance I'm not going to feel guilty.

I dont go 2- 5 times a year. Maybe once every few years. So no I dont GAF.

When I lived in the UK I couldn't afford a holiday in the UK because of high train prices whereas I could afford a cheap Ryan Air flight abroad.

I have a lovely 7 bedroom second home in Brittany but have not set foot in it since before the pandemic. It would be ok for us to go as double vaccinated but child under 16 so no vaccine yet and in France that means child can't go into restaurant etc. Hence we have stayed at home. Wondering.if we will ever use it again

Do you, aye?

[quote DumplingsAndStew]@Alaimo

You'd just need to take the Eurostar to Brussels

The vast, vast majority of the population are not within walking distance of the Eurostar.[/quote]
It's a very SE centric viewpoint. Most of us are a few hours, and possibly hundreds of pounds away from 'just taking the Eurostar'.

Most of the time I can fly to the Med quicker, and cheaper than getting to the start of the Eurostar by train.

And YY to the boring stereotype of 'people only going abroad to lay on the beach/by the pool'. Of course we go abroad for the weather but we also go so we can swim and dive in warm clear seas where we're less likely to get blown out, to see historical sites and see different cultures and cuisines. Also that we're not going to get ripped off at every turn by people selling us nasty processed food and extortionately priced alcohol but resent us actually being there buying it.