To feel I can’t holiday abroad again?

[backoffice]

I feel really guilty using air travel (although it’s so easy!) and used to travel by train through Europe wherever I could. Had a lovely trip planned in 2020 taking in several countries - but all went to pot!

Inter-Europe travel feels very dodgy now with Covid and lack of fresh air etc in carriages. Planes feel safer (shorter trips and good air circulation) but I’m too guilt-ridden because of the environmental impact. Cruises seem just as bad!

I can’t see a way of planning a safe and ethical holiday abroad now. AIBU? How are people justifying it?

Not as bad as flying or going on a massive cruise ship, but polluting unless you have an electric car.

It's not atm, but if 300 people decide to drive instead of flying because "it's better than flying", it will easily become worse. What would it be. Average 200 cars instead of one plane? Now that will become worse problem.

Same with diets.
Eating meat is bad. When we stop eating meat lentils will become bad, when we stop eating lentils, Quorn will become bad and so on.

Thomas Malthus predicted all this back in the 1700’s. If any of us really wanted to do anything especially in developed countries we will stop having children and everything would be rationed. No one is going to put up with that, it’s all bread and circuses, always has been and always will.

You’re keeping the tourism industry going and people in jobs. Some areas just simply wouldn’t survive without tourists. Think of going on holiday like your civil duty.

No need for the hand wringing and tying yourself in knots. Just decide if not flying is more important to you than holidaying and get on with it. I have always tried to do the right thing where climate change is concerned but find myself increasingly unwilling to make changes that are a significant sacrifice to me and my quality of life but a drop in the ocean in terms of having an effect. Especially with all the misery of the last couple of years I am struggling to curtail my life any more while watching the USA, China big business etc. do the sum total of fuck all meaning that my (significant to me) changes are pointless. Call me cynical, I feel it increasingly, but that’s where I am right now

YANBU OP. Haven't flown in 5/6 years now because of this. Couldn't justify it to myself for a jolly. Work, family abroad and things are different reasons for travelling but we try to do what we can here.

I'm 52 and clearly remember being taught about global warming in the first year at a UK secondary school. (I have always been a worrier so the memory stuck!) Still, it wasn't as clear even 25 years ago when I was thinking about children that their future would be quite so badly affected - the true dimensions are only really coming out now.

OP, I live abroad and still want to visit my family in the UK so I am going to have to go on some long-distance trips. The train journey including the Channel crossing and an overnight stay along the way is too expensive for me currently. But OTOH I don't have a car, so I don't feel such a big burden on the environment. Maybe you could get rid of the car? Here in eastern Germany, people commonly use bike trailers and hand-pulled carts to haul heavy items around, if the shops are within walking distance.

I do plan to use the train more for other holidays in mainland Europe, and have been slightly reassured by the local virus expert saying that if you're in relatively decent nick, once you've got vaccinated it is actually not such a bad thing to catch Covid - it gives you better immunity or something. Home testing kits are really cheap here, so my plan is to do a test once or twice a week when travelling, and not visit anyone at risk. I don't think I'll be putting more people at risk than I would by just going about my life normally.

I don't feel like I need to justify doing something that I enjoy, is legal and easily available to be honest.

Surprised how this thread has gone.
Seems like people are fed up with climate change if it impacts their holidays.

YouTubeAddict nice try. I live in Cornwall, and tourism has honestly done more harm than good. It has destroyed communities, pushed house prices far out of the reach of local people, and tourism jobs are usually short term and badly paid with no chance of career progression. Used to live in Venice, too - same.

@Auntienumber8

Thomas Malthus predicted all this back in the 1700’s. If any of us really wanted to do anything especially in developed countries we will stop having children and everything would be rationed. No one is going to put up with that, it’s all bread and circuses, always has been and always will.

Sounds interesting, can you recommend any of his writing?

@backoffice

I’m surprised that so many of you aren’t worried by the ecological concerns. My teens are always on climate rallies etc which makes me feel even WORSE.

I do drive but minimise my driving and always take the train for longer journeys.

Do people really not care about climate change? It surprises me, especially with children. I want to do all I can to preserve their future.

This is really guilt trippy.

It's not that I don't care about climate change, but I don't have kids (massive contributor to it), I don't drive, and I do my best to always buy second hand and recycle. So no, I really don't feel guilty at all about travel that helps my mental health enormously and brings me joy. As soon as it's feasible I'll be booking flights and trains again and seeing more of Europe and the rest of the world.

If I knew then what I know now about the climate crisis etc, I would really rethink having children. My three dc don’t want any for this reason. I think they may be right?

Interesting discussion and I appreciate the posts. Having done some recent work on a nearish flooding project, it’s really confirmed for me that I don’t want to fly again. It feels too avoidable.

I will definitely look into more train travel into Europe though, once I’ve got a better idea of how that works with testing etc.

Partly I think these attitudes (pro wanting to travel) come from the UK being a fairly shit windy gray island in the middle of the Atlantic. It is pretty crap, I agree.

@lightand

Surprised how this thread has gone. Seems like people are fed up with climate change if it impacts their holidays.

We are on MN where people wash towels (and tumble dry usually) after one use.

No discussion about climate change can actually be taken seriously here.

I'm with you. We holiday mostly in this country for cost and environmental reasons - but because of that I don't beat myself up if I do decide to fly somewhere in Europe (about once in five years) or long haul (once in ten, maybe).
Sometimes have we taken a car ferry or Eurotunnel to North France, Belgium or Netherlands; I don't love driving abroad but it's a means to an end.
I find it a treat to travel by train but I would have reservations about Covid safety right now; I always feel the holiday begins as soon as you leave the house (whereas when you drive it's long and stressful day for the driver).
I have kind of given up thought of going abroad for the next five years or so anyway, I can't be doing with the stress!

*Squirrelblanket

I enjoy travel by choosing not to care about any of the things you mention. HTH from the poolside in Greece*

This would be the Greece that is suffering worse and worse heat waves and wildfires every summer, as a result of climate change? I fear that your days of “not caring” are numbered….🤔

If you are really that concerned about the environment you shouldn't of had children that's the single most beneficial thing anyone can do for this planet. No to breed.

@Getyourarseofffthequattro

Why do people think going abroad is just lying on a beach? I genuinely feel I need it to live a half decent life. I feel much worse having had no proper sun for over a year now. If it was reliably warm here I wouldn't go.

If it was banned I would have to move to a warm country somehow. I couldn't live a miserable cold life here forever more.

A close friend who always used to say this admitted to me that she did this when she simply didn’t have the money to go abroad.

Then when she got an increase and more financially secure… hol abroad every year

@backoffice

If I knew then what I know now about the climate crisis etc, I would really rethink having children. My three dc don’t want any for this reason. I think they may be right?

Interesting discussion and I appreciate the posts. Having done some recent work on a nearish flooding project, it’s really confirmed for me that I don’t want to fly again. It feels too avoidable.

I will definitely look into more train travel into Europe though, once I’ve got a better idea of how that works with testing etc.

How old are your children?

My dc are adults

@Cazzovuoi

Also adopting a plant based diet is probably the worst thing you can do for the planet. Monocrops are killing our soil. When cows eat grass (just like in the wild, not megafarms where they're fed grains exclusively), they cause the grass to dump carbon into the soil (because the grass has a symbiotic relationship with the soil fungus, providing it with sugar - a 6-carbon molecule - in exchange for micronutrients) sequestering carbon from the atmosphere and creating up to a foot of topsoil/year. If the earth's grasslands were covered in cattle, it would completely reverse climate change in our lifetime.

During lockdown cows still farted yet the carbon level tanked. Ask yourself why.

Save the planet, eat a cow.

@Cazzovuoi - I just checked this with a close friend who is a global climate change expert with a PhD in the subject, and is frequently invited to speak on the telly and radio about it.

She confirmed it's complete and utter bollocks, largely being put about by the meat dairy industry.

Do you work for them?

I voted YABU because it first seemed like your reasons were covid-related and I thought, "don't be daft, things won't always be like this".

If you don't feel comfortable flying, don't fly.

I'll continue taking the odd flight. I do what I can for the environment. I recycle everything possible, pass unwanted things on somehow or other, maintain a green garden for wildlife and insects. I don't overuse my central heating or hot water. I do drive pretty much everywhere, rarely walk even short distances. I try not to waste food. I bring my children up not to litter and not to waste.

@backoffice

My dc are adults

And not one if three intend to have children because of the climate crisis?

@backoffice

I’m surprised that so many of you aren’t worried by the ecological concerns. My teens are always on climate rallies etc which makes me feel even WORSE.

I do drive but minimise my driving and always take the train for longer journeys.

Do people really not care about climate change? It surprises me, especially with children. I want to do all I can to preserve their future.

People can't even bear the slight discomfort of wearing a face mask for 2 minutes whilst they enter a shop.

Do you think they're really going to put themselves out and change their behaviour and travel plans en masse for this climate emergency that they cannot yet see?

It's very depressing and I agree with you about the concerns, I wish it were different, but this is human nature.