To feel I can’t holiday abroad again?

[backoffice]

I feel really guilty using air travel (although it’s so easy!) and used to travel by train through Europe wherever I could. Had a lovely trip planned in 2020 taking in several countries - but all went to pot!

Inter-Europe travel feels very dodgy now with Covid and lack of fresh air etc in carriages. Planes feel safer (shorter trips and good air circulation) but I’m too guilt-ridden because of the environmental impact. Cruises seem just as bad!

I can’t see a way of planning a safe and ethical holiday abroad now. AIBU? How are people justifying it?

I feel like that too, but I'm not that bothered about travel. There's no such thing as a "dream holiday" to me. I like a break away but I'm not bothered about exotic locations.

If foreign holidays were important to me I daresay I'd find a way to justify it to myself.

@Gwenhwyfar

When I lived in the UK I couldn't afford a holiday in the UK because of high train prices whereas I could afford a cheap Ryan Air flight abroad.

I guess location is relative. We've got an idyllic eco campsite (no electrics, solar shower, composting toilets) 20 minutes away that costs about 30 quid a pitch per night. Whereas the nearest main airport is two hours away.

So how do people explain away the notion that two fathers can have two children each but the mother therefore has four? The fathers carbon footprint is fine (they have no other kids) but the mothers is not? Or does it balance out because those fathers only have two children each to the one mother?

Not my experience but I do wonder how they work the statistics in this case.

Most of the time I can fly to the Med quicker, and cheaper than getting to the start of the Eurostar by train.

It takes me about 5 hours, for and half with good winds, door to door from my house here to my mum's house on the continent.
It would take me about 3 hours to just get to Eurostar here and that is with car in a picture.

"I never really understand those who are so attached to flying for pleasure, anyway. You enjoy being pushed around like cattle for a couple of hours pre boarding and taking your boots off at the security check before being crammed in like sardines with nowhere to go in the event of screaming babies- I’ll be relaxing and enjoying the countryside from my spacious train seat before sauntering off to the bar 🥂Cheers!"

I don't think it's the flying that people enjoy, is it? It's being able to get somewhere further away and faster than you would on any other means of transport. I prefer the train as well, but not if I have to travel for 30 hours and pay hundreds.

@MurielSpriggs

In our view if the trip is going to be a positive educational and fun experience for our kids it's worth getting on a plane, probably once a year max. We also have friends abroad that we want to visit so that is justifiable too.

But to go and just sit on a sun lounger in the company of lots of other brits, we don't think we can justify that anymore (and wouldn't enjoy it anyway don't think).

This seems like a Mumsnet parody! We've agonised about it and concluded that it's fine to fly little Fabian and Allegra to St Petersburg to learn about architecture, or to visit Rupert and Sophie at their villa in Tuscany. But we're simply appalled to discover that our builder Darren is flying to some ghastly hotel in Faliraki to drink beer and turn red. Won't somebody please think about the environment?

Bloody Darren, he just doesn’t GAF. Selfish prick

@Sylvvie

So how do people explain away the notion that two fathers can have two children each but the mother therefore has four? The fathers carbon footprint is fine (they have no other kids) but the mothers is not? Or does it balance out because those fathers only have two children each to the one mother?

Not my experience but I do wonder how they work the statistics in this case.

No. Bith should take a note from contraception book.

The reason why mothers are mentioned here is because fathers don't bitch to posters about people not doing enough. The probably bitch to someone rlse so you could see "he and his 5 kids" on a different forum

@HarrisMcCoo

Stick to local holidays you can cycle to. No guilt that way🤷

I wouldn't want to pay to stay 10 miles a way.

How are people justifying it?

I could list the MANY ways that we as a family try to keep our carbon footprint as low as we can, including the fact that I have had only 5 holidays abroad in my 40 years of life on this planet.

As soon as restrictions allow I am going on our 3 week trip to America that has been in the planning since 2017 and I'll be fucked if any environmentalist eco warrior is going to guilt trip me about it.

[quote Annoyedanddissapointed]@EileenGC hoe is recycling yhere? Because from what I understand UK is quite behind. I remember growing up in another EU country, and going to massive recycle bins around the corner. Flatten the plastic bottles and stuff was weekly chore. And glass bottles are returnable (like beer for example) with deposit on them.[/quote]
@Annoyedanddissapointed recycling here is pretty good I would say. Not so many plastic containers are recyclable where I live, so that's something I think needs improving still. I was in London when I lived in the UK so I thought it was decent over there too.

You do indeed pay a deposit for glass and plastic bottles (except the Lidl orange juice ones ), as well as cans. You return them to the supermarket and get money back for them. It's more unusual to see empty bottles around, because they're effectively money on the floor.

We also had a holiday booked for 2020 which involved train travel through two European countries. Same reason as you OP - we don't fly anymore for environmental reasons.

Thankfully we were able to cancel and get almost all our money back.

Not rebooked yet. From a covid pov I've no issue with getting on a train but the rules on red/amber/green countries and self isolating on return and taking tests have just been changing so often that I don't feel confident enough to rebook anything yet. Plus the two countries we were going to have had different rules to each other at different times. That's the disadvantage at the moment of not just flying to your destination - if you have to travel overland through several countries it gets complicated from a covid pov.

I figure we just need to wait another year or two until things settle down more. Given all that's happened in the last 18 months having to postpone our European holiday a bit longer is hardly the worst thing.

"If you are vaccinated I wouldn't be worried about taking Eurostar and changing on to further European trains - they have more stringent mask wearing requirements."

Nope. You can eat and drink on the Eurostar without a mask. You could potentially have a cup of tea or a glass of wine going throughout the journey.

"I’m in my 20s, and I was taught at school about the state of our planet. "

I'm in my 40s and was also taught about it. CFCs and the Ozone layer, acid rain, desertification, etc.

Nope. You can eat and drink on the Eurostar without a mask. You could potentially have a cup of tea or a glass of wine going throughout the journey.

The point is, most people wouldn't have a cup of tea going for the duration of the train journey. Out of respect. As soon as you reach mainland Europe, you will also be pulled up on it. If the controller comes an hour later and sees the same empty coffee cup you were pretending to drink from earlier, they will kindly ask you to stop the pretending and put the mask on. I've witnessed it enough times this summer because like a PP said - in (central and southern) Europe they're actually strict about mask wearing.

"Most of us are a few hours, and possibly hundreds of pounds away from 'just taking the Eurostar'."

The National Express goes to London from most parts of the UK except the very isolated ones and is cheap. It does take a while.

@FrangipaniBlue

How are people justifying it?

I could list the MANY ways that we as a family try to keep our carbon footprint as low as we can, including the fact that I have had only 5 holidays abroad in my 40 years of life on this planet.

As soon as restrictions allow I am going on our 3 week trip to America that has been in the planning since 2017 and I'll be fucked if any environmentalist eco warrior is going to guilt trip me about it.

Most of the moderate climate activists (yes, they exist) aren't trying to tell people they should never set foot on a plane. Everyone should get to fly -- people have families abroad they need to see, young people have to see the world, and so on. It's just that we need to be doing it mindfully.

Lots of people have said here, "I fly because I can afford it." Maybe there should be a shift in thinking, so that when we talk about affordability, we take into account that we're not only spending money -- we're also spending capital in terms of the planet's ability to host us. Spend too much of that, and we're in trouble. It should inform every spending decision, not just flying.

[quote DumplingsAndStew]@Gwenhwyfar

When I lived in the UK I couldn't afford a holiday in the UK because of high train prices whereas I could afford a cheap Ryan Air flight abroad.

I guess location is relative. We've got an idyllic eco campsite (no electrics, solar shower, composting toilets) 20 minutes away that costs about 30 quid a pitch per night. Whereas the nearest main airport is two hours away.[/quote]
Why would you go on holiday 20 minutes away? What would you learn from that? What new experiences would you have?

"Or does it balance out because those fathers only have two children each to the one mother?"

It balances out.

EileenGC I’ve had a few holidays abroad since COVID and haven’t found other countries any stricter than the UK. Lots of noses out, masks pulled right down and eating and drinking going on.

"It would take me about 3 hours to just get to Eurostar here and that is with car in a picture."

So what though? It's something you could consider doing some of the time isn't it?
And many people do travel from big city to big city anyway so the Eurostar is a good option for those going to Brussels, Paris, Amsterdam, Lille and on to other stations on the continent.

"The point is, most people wouldn't have a cup of tea going for the duration of the train journey. Out of respect. As soon as you reach mainland Europe, you will also be pulled up on it. If the controller comes an hour later and sees the same empty coffee cup you were pretending to drink from earlier, they will kindly ask you to stop the pretending and put the mask on. I've witnessed it enough times this summer "

You haven't been on the Eurostar this summer have you?
It doesn't go to central and southern Europe, as you know.

@Jerseygirl12

EileenGC I’ve had a few holidays abroad since COVID and haven’t found other countries any stricter than the UK. Lots of noses out, masks pulled right down and eating and drinking going on.

I live on the continent and you absolutely cannot take your mask off on local public transport. If people try, they will be told not to by the guard and if they refuse thrown off. However, the Eurostar is different because food and drink is allowed.

"Everyone should get to fly -- people have families abroad they need to see, young people have to see the world, and so on. It's just that we need to be doing it mindfully."

I think it would be fair enough to say that we should be incentivised to take the train for distances where that is manageable.

Domestic flights within the UK should not be the option for ordinary people, but when someone looks at how to get from southern England to Scotland and realise that train and plane are the same prize or plane is even cheaper, what are they going to do?

Sometimes when I fly it's not because I can afford it, but because I can't afford the train.

I bought two tops from the charity shop today - does that give me some credit? I've got a client (legal job) who is very conscious of her carbon footprint. She doesn't want any correspondence by post. I therefore have to print out her correspondence and either scan it to her or phone her to pick it up. So not only am I using the scanner I'm also using the phone. Would sending it out in the post have increased her carbon footprint? Several people have said don't bother posting something out, phone me and I will pick it up. Aye sure I will spend most of my day doing that! Or, will I just drop all local post off on my way home?

@backoffice I agree with you on the climate responsibility- I travel far less now yes due to covid but also because I feel it’s harmful for the environment and I think everyone needs to make some changes. I personally feel quite conscious that our first world lifestyle is very damaging to the environment and worlds’ resources; and there are many people who don’t have access to basic amenities still. So you’re not alone in being conscious of this! I don’t have a solution really other than travel by well used methods which are more efficient eg train or busy plane but in the covid age it’s difficult and personally I’ve decided to just wait until I feel it’s safer xo