To feel I can’t holiday abroad again?

[backoffice]

I feel really guilty using air travel (although it’s so easy!) and used to travel by train through Europe wherever I could. Had a lovely trip planned in 2020 taking in several countries - but all went to pot!

Inter-Europe travel feels very dodgy now with Covid and lack of fresh air etc in carriages. Planes feel safer (shorter trips and good air circulation) but I’m too guilt-ridden because of the environmental impact. Cruises seem just as bad!

I can’t see a way of planning a safe and ethical holiday abroad now. AIBU? How are people justifying it?

I find it increasingly hard to take seriously tbh - the effect of the whatever it is 10% of the world population that travel by air not doing or reducing is always going to be negligible compared to entire nations like the US and China's factory outputs or all the beef herds in the US and South America surely?

I find it a bit galling that individuals are made to feel bad for wanting to travel and see the planet when entire nations refuse to engage or agree to meet reduction targets. And surely that effort in shaming individuals would be better spent on collective efforts to develop less damaging aircraft fuels / forms of power / renewable energy.

My take from most of this thread

-- we're doomed.

@MurielSpriggs

In our view if the trip is going to be a positive educational and fun experience for our kids it's worth getting on a plane, probably once a year max. We also have friends abroad that we want to visit so that is justifiable too.

But to go and just sit on a sun lounger in the company of lots of other brits, we don't think we can justify that anymore (and wouldn't enjoy it anyway don't think).

This seems like a Mumsnet parody! We've agonised about it and concluded that it's fine to fly little Fabian and Allegra to St Petersburg to learn about architecture, or to visit Rupert and Sophie at their villa in Tuscany. But we're simply appalled to discover that our builder Darren is flying to some ghastly hotel in Faliraki to drink beer and turn red. Won't somebody please think about the environment?

@Annoyedanddissapointed

.

‘I do it because I can’

🤣

I’m making this gif my motto for life.

It’s not as simply as aviation bad everything else, good.
Do your research, find low carbon airlines (virgin is pretty good), with more efficient engines.
200 people on a plane vs 200 cars travelling to the south of France for example, in a new greener plane, the plane wins on eco stakes.

@snanagram

If you take the train instead of a plane will the plane actually not fly to the destination?

If you do take the plane, how much extra carbon will be generated by you being on board?

If you stay at home in a dark cupboard wearing only clothes that you have knitted yourself from rope made of homegrown courgettes and existing on a diet of rainwater will the planes still fly?

If everyone took the train instead of a plane, would the plane not fly? Probably.

Nothing works if you do it as an individual. Everyone has to play their part which is what the OP is basically getting at.

Simple*

I don't even own a tumble dryer. Another point.
Might be able to credit a long haul like this😱

Hi OP, I also don't fly for environmental reasons. I use the train and do not agree that trains have particular air issues - air exchange is pretty good on modern trains. So I would be happy with train travel, especially in Europe where Covid is being taken more seriously than in the UK.

I don't think you can base your ethical decisions on what other people do, so just continue looking to your own standards for this. There has always been a variety of views on all issues, sometimes there are early adopters and everyone else eventually joins in, sometimes issues fizzle out. You have to do what you think is right and just observe how the general pattern of behaviour evolves.

[quote Bhappy12]@EileenGC
That's missing the point, though.
A person can choose not to fly in the future. They can not (legally) choose to not have an already living child. They can, however, choose not to have any more children, which many people do/have done. Many people had children before they knew the state the planet was in.[/quote]
Climate change has been greatly discussed for decades...

FWIW, I think one long roundtrip is better than several short breaks to the same countries. Either by plane or by train.

But I'd probably wait a couple of years (hopefully less) before planning trips abroad, if possible.

I enjoy travel by choosing not to care about any of the things you mention. HTH from the poolside in Greece.

I don't think it's a clear cut case of "if you fly you dgaf" I certainly do, and try to make changes in my everyday life to counter act any bad I may do by jumping on a plane. I have used reusable nappies and myself and my daughter use reusable pads. I recycle/terracycle what I can. I can't drive, I try to limit food waste and plastic consumption. Energy saving electronics and light bulbs and heating. I try to save water where I can. I would rather live my life doing what I can imperfectly, than live it perfectly (in the eyes of someone else) but be miserable. I love travelling. It is literally what I love most (husband and kids, just two of them, lol aside) I have no other hobbies or interests but I refuse to die not having seen more than a small patch of this planet.
Especially when you have people who don't recycle, think nothing of wearing something once and binning it, or when you have corporations literally pumping toxic chemicals in to rivers and the air. Where governments are sanctioning the cutting down of forests and jungles. Where people don't even believe in climate change.
And lets not get started on the amount of single use plastic this pandemic will have created, which will stick around long after I or you are gone. So I will travel as much as my purse allows me, and I won't justify it to anyone.

Threads like this one without fail invoke opposing views, which sometimes degenerate into nasty verbal MN spats.
They also generate a fair amount of virtue-signalling, and people going on the defensive and feeling the need to justify what they are doing/not doing.
I believe climate change is real, and certainly need to be doing more than I am doing.
But I really don't think hectoring and punishing people is the way to change their behaviour - it can result in resentment and defiance.
People respond better when they are given facts in a reasoned, educational, respectful way, which encourages them to get on board by treating them as having agency and intelligence.
As a sort of example, I am in agreement with the beliefs of Extinction Rebellion, but not some of their actions, which have disrupted the lives of ordinary people trying to get to work, hospital appointments, etc, and which have cost us a hell of a lot of money in policing, (said to be £50 million since 2019).
This last point has probably gone off topic, sorry, and could be a thread in its own right 🙄

I do t wash everything the second it’s been on my body. I don’t own a tumble dryer. I have one (adult) DD. I recycle.
I fly on holiday at most once a year - and haven’t flown for about 4 years at the moment. I do not believe me taking the occasional holiday is the most pressing issue in terms of climate change.

[quote backoffice]@Mybalconyiscracking why the need to be so rude?

I genuinely thought that most people were actively trying to reduce their carbon footprint and worried about climate change. I’m surprised so many people don’t want to take action. Especially if you have children.[/quote]
No OP they are entitled to their holidays and their oversized cars.

However, I am hypocritical as I will be flying on holiday at the end of this month. The only upside is that it's to the Channel Islands, the plane is small, flies at relatively low altitude and the flight is only 30 mins.

If the PCR test requirement is removed, I can start going on holiday in Europe again, which makes train travel an option.

And no, there is a very obvious barrier to driving in Europe even if you drive in the UK (and Ireland) - the side of the road we drive on! Anyway driving isn't very eco-friendly either. Not as bad as flying or going on a massive cruise ship, but polluting unless you have an electric car.

I haven't flown for years and don't plan to again unless absolutely necessary...because it's so bloody boring! Trains are much more fun IMHO as you get to see the views as you go rather than just clouds. But as I've not spawned, and I do as many of the good little eco things as practical, I'm not going to beat myself up if I go on a plane once in a blue moon.

I justify it by
1.wanting a holiday.
2.can afford a holiday

@backoffice

I’m surprised that so many of you aren’t worried by the ecological concerns. My teens are always on climate rallies etc which makes me feel even WORSE.

I do drive but minimise my driving and always take the train for longer journeys.

Do people really not care about climate change? It surprises me, especially with children. I want to do all I can to preserve their future.

A lot of these preachy teens are the ones that leave places like Reading festival absolutely covered in litter, with tents etc dumped for others to clean up.

I have a lovely 7 bedroom second home in Brittany but have not set foot in it since before the pandemic. It would be ok for us to go as double vaccinated but child under 16 so no vaccine yet and in France that means child can't go into restaurant etc. Hence we have stayed at home. Wondering.if we will ever use it again.

People will not start actually caring about their use of fossil fuels until it is no longer possible. Humanity is doomed because the vast majority are too selfish to see beyond their own wants. The individual effort is really not much good until countries start actually making laws against the stuff which is unnecessary - we don’t need most of the plastic crap we buy, we don’t need to fly abroad just to go and lay on a beach. No one cares until it affects them.

Nothing works if you do it as an individual. Everyone has to play their part which is what the OP is basically getting at.

Yes, I get that, it's not exactly rocket science (do we need rockets? what's their carbon footprint anyway?), but it is unrealistic to think that everyone will suddenly decide to "play their part" and the airline/travel industry isn't suddenly going to stop exisiting because of some virtue-signalling MNetters.

Why do people think going abroad is just lying on a beach? I genuinely feel I need it to live a half decent life. I feel much worse having had no proper sun for over a year now. If it was reliably warm here I wouldn't go.

If it was banned I would have to move to a warm country somehow. I couldn't live a miserable cold life here forever more.