To feel I can’t holiday abroad again?

[backoffice]

I feel really guilty using air travel (although it’s so easy!) and used to travel by train through Europe wherever I could. Had a lovely trip planned in 2020 taking in several countries - but all went to pot!

Inter-Europe travel feels very dodgy now with Covid and lack of fresh air etc in carriages. Planes feel safer (shorter trips and good air circulation) but I’m too guilt-ridden because of the environmental impact. Cruises seem just as bad!

I can’t see a way of planning a safe and ethical holiday abroad now. AIBU? How are people justifying it?

@backoffice

I do all those other things - shop at farmers market, pay a lot for local food deliveries etc. But nothing has anywhere like the impact of flying. It’s all pretty pointless if we are still flying.

Do you eat meat? Because that is by far the biggest contributor to your carbon footprint if so, significantly more than flying. If you aren’t already veggie then do that and holiday safe in the knowledge that you’ve reduced your impact overall.

I’m with you too OP on the environmental front. No idea what the answer is though, I just feel massively worried about DC and DNs future.

This graphic from The Guardian is interesting.

How can I GAF?

I cant afford to go abroad it's not something on my radar.
I last time went abroad about 3 years ago. And I might get another chance in another couple of years.

So if in a couple of years I get the chance I'm not going to feel guilty.

I dont go 2- 5 times a year. Maybe once every few years. So no I dont GAF.

So much in life is unfair you could say. I choose to enjoy what I can. That includes travelling without guilt!

I feel like this OP! Like I’ll never go abroad again

I’m interested in the responses as I had a feeling it was an anxiety type thing and not reasonable!

I don't really understand your question, and I suspect the post is not motivated by what the question purports to be! But taking your post at face value, travel damages the environment, so if it's a concern to you then you shouldn't make any unnecessary journeys, and you certainly shouldn't go on holiday. It seems pretty simple?

(Or travel by horse, but that would no doubt provoke a whole new load of handwringing.)

@CyanideInTheFishPaste

x post with *@Sagegreenvelvet*!

Thank you. I m nearly eighty and the last time I flew was to Ireland in two thousand. No car; no washing machine. etc. On a pension not much leeway and I am happy with that. No meat and buy local . Seems odd folk saying they want their children to see the world with what that air travel is doing to the world and THEIR children may never see it.

The thread is just a snapshot of why we are where we are, in terms of climate change. People are selfish and choose to close their minds and fuck the next person.

I’m just as selfish and as much of a hypocrite as everyone else: I fly for pleasure, but do all the recycling / organic/ shop locally stuff. There is no way to not be a hypocrite if you live in and participate in Western society. It’s come to that. And that’s only looking forward, not even looking back at who has polluted the planet and gained financially from it historically.

Not flying for a holiday is going to make no difference to climate change. Every person in Western civilization not flying for pleasure will make a negligible impact on climate change. Big business, and the richest 0.01% of the world’s population are the biggest polluters by a wide margin. That - for all of us who drive cars, shop at Amazon, buy fashionable clothes, eat meat, heat our homes, consume plastics, use electricity, everything - is every single one of us. Big business serves us, profits from us, and preserves for a tiny minority at the majority’s expense. We’re doing it to ourselves.

Halting or reversing climate change needs radical change from radical leaders. Instead, we have Jeff Bezos and America.

Give it up. Go find peace with your kids in European beaches, mountains, hills and rivers. Take a plane or walk - it’ll make no difference.

@GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing

I feel like this OP! Like I’ll never go abroad again

I’m interested in the responses as I had a feeling it was an anxiety type thing and not reasonable!

Travelling without guilt is an oxymoron. Impossible. Travelling heedless of the damage is another thing entirely.

@SylvanasWindrunner that’s interesting although I wonder why the comparison is only with one return flight. A fair comparison with having one fewer child (I have two in case anyone jumps on this - realise that the environmentally friendly option would have been 0 or 1) would surely be a lifetime of flights?

I think to be fair OP you've muddled 2 issues in your post, whether YABU unreasonable to not go on public transport because of Covid (I would say YABU there, public transport is pretty safe for healthy, double-vaccinated people, but either way I would say that's a personal choice not an ethical issue), or YABU to not fly again and generally reduce travel for environmental reasons in which case I think I would say YANBU. The latter question comes up pretty frequently on MN and does always get a mixed response but not the 90% YABU you're getting so I don't think it's representative.

Personally I am trying to reduce the amount I fly down to only every other year and only short-haul. The evidence is pretty much 100% there that even flying at that amount (and with carbon offsetting etc) is still very bad for the environment so I still feel fairly guilty about it - the argument of 'the plane would still fly if you weren't on it' is pretty much a logical fallacy to me, obviously one person has minimal impact but if we collectively reduced the amount we booked flights (just reduced, not stopped all together), fewer planes would fly, just look at what happened with Covid. The fact that it would take collective effort to make this happen is no excuse for shirking individual responsibility in this IMO. Of course people will always bring up the need to fly for family or work reasons or the fact that tourism brings in much needed money to struggling local economies so I don't think it's as black and white as 'no-one should fly, ever' but I do think it's down to all of us at the very least to be thoughful about our personal environmental impact and take whatever steps we can to mitigate rather than taking the attitude of I'll do what I like, other people are worse, what I do as individual doesn't matter, fuck the rest of you etc etc....

Love that Guardian graphic. I only have one kid so my job is done and I can crack on with as many flights as I like

I still fly happily for holidays I just reduce my emissions elsewhere! The biggest source is heat and electricity generation so in summer the heating isn't on and in winter we use it when required but will use our multifuel burner with a lower emitting fuel type. It's still not great but better than heating 24/7 as our area its oil heating mostly. We also use auto switches so stuff isn't on standby and reduce electricity use where possible.
We also only have meat twice a week and shop locally where possible.

It's about finding what your comfortable with!

[quote GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing]@SylvanasWindrunner that’s interesting although I wonder why the comparison is only with one return flight. A fair comparison with having one fewer child (I have two in case anyone jumps on this - realise that the environmentally friendly option would have been 0 or 1) would surely be a lifetime of flights?[/quote]
I think it's a per year basis, though. It's what each child generates over the parent's lifespan and then broken down into a yearly number, so it's a fair equivalence.

'The new study, published in Environmental Research Letters, sets out the impact of different actions on a comparable basis. By far the biggest ultimate impact is having one fewer child, which the researchers calculated equated to a reduction of 58 tonnes of CO2 for each year of a parent’s life.

The figure was calculated by totting up the emissions of the child and all their descendants, then dividing this total by the parent’s lifespan. Each parent was ascribed 50% of the child’s emissions, 25% of their grandchildren’s emissions and so on.'

@InTheNameOfAllThatIsHonest

So much in life is unfair you could say. I choose to enjoy what I can. That includes travelling without guilt!

Travelling without guilt; an oxymoron. Travelling totally uncaring is travelling with double guilt. Odd way to enjoy life..

The article is here if anyone is interested. It's 2017 though so there's probably more recent research: www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jul/12/want-to-fight-climate-change-have-fewer-children

@backoffice

I do all those other things - shop at farmers market, pay a lot for local food deliveries etc. But nothing has anywhere like the impact of flying. It’s all pretty pointless if we are still flying.

I thought having kids was the worst thing you could do? Naughty OP. Admittedly too late to do anything about it now

Who said I didn’t GAF About the climate?

I didn’t like your post because it felt like virtue signalling and hand wringing to me.

We have green electricity, we save up to 5000L of rainwater, and filter it, for general use. We have one child not two. We used re usable nappies. It’s a relative and relevant, and I don’t want to be shamed, subtly or otherwise for enjoying a yearly flight.

Seems odd folk saying they want their children to see the world with what that air travel is doing to the world and THEIR children may never see it.

@SoloISland

The biggest help to the future of the planet would be if they'd stop having all these children!

I don't have kids. Or a car. Nor have I flown since last summer. I need to crack on and get some long haul booked.

You would literally have to live in the woods and be a complete hermit not to have any impact on the environment. Besides, us as citizens don't have anywhere near as big an impact as it is made out to be.

70% of fossil fuel emissions are actually attributed to 100 of the worlds largest firms.

I'm not saying we should all just do nothing, we need to do our part to change things too, just like those companies do (but they don't) and that's exactly how I justify it.

If I spend my time sorting my waste appropriately, reducing the amount of plastic I use, walking where I can, sourcing local products, eating less meat, reducing my energy consumption and general product consumption and doing everything I am told to do to reduce my own carbon footprint while those companies don't bother, then I am damn well going to take those two bus journeys and two flights a year so I can enjoy a well deserved bloody break from all the shit going on in the UK at the moment.

Is this post about Covid or just to lecture people about one particular thing that you've identified as being the thing to change in your WRT climate change?

Because if it's the latter and if you're still eating meat regularly and drinking milk, then YABVU.

@chocolatesaltyballs22

Love that Guardian graphic. I only have one kid so my job is done and I can crack on with as many flights as I like

My feeling precisely! I shall leave the travel hand wringing to those who have polluted the planet with their multiple offspring

"A global pandemic isn’t going to stop me."

It's managed to stop quite a few people.

Permanently.