To think faith schools should be forced to change their application process?

[storminborehamwood]

Most people accept that you can't discriminate against someone for their religion. So why can faith schools do it when it comes to kids getting a place?

AIBU to think state-funded faith schools should be forced to remove religious criteria from applications?

I know state-funded faith schools get extra funding from religion and that supposedly justifies giving priority to kids with religious ties.

I just can't understand why it's illegal to mark someone down for a job application based on their religion, but it's okay to do it for a school application.

Couldn't agree more. It's wholly discriminatory.

Where I live, hundreds of families fake being religious to get into the better secondaries. If that doesn't make a mockery of the whole thing I don't know what does.

It's a disgrace all round.

I think you mean admissions criteria. Changing the process makes no difference if the criteria are still discriminatory.

I think we should be trying to improve the other schools that aren't doing so well, instead of being annoyed at the religious schools.
Why do we think religious schools do better though?

I totally agree, OP. It's bizarre that this kind of discrimination is allowed.

Not all religious schools do better. In my area, the best state schools are not religious. Perhaps we should make those schools prioritise the kids who are not religious in order to even things out a bit?

Then they'll put far more emphasis on entrance exams which will massively favour certain feeder schools or families with the ability to pay for tutelage. (The local faith secondary does have an entrance exam but apparently only a very small number of children ever fail it)

It's not ideal but at least acceptance just on faith does allow families of lesser means to have a go at getting in.

Depends on the faith.

Due to parents in my area "finding God" to try to get into the CofE schools in my area, they now do it on the same criteria as other primary schools to ensure that poorer or non-CofE families aren't discriminated against.

This means my DD is in the catchment area of 2 church schools and very likely to get into the nearest as it is one of the two closest schools.

I think the real annoyance with this is that religious schools generally do better, which is why some people lie to get their kids in.
I don't think people would care so much if religious schools did worse overall. Like why would anyone care if that was the case?
I do maintain that we need to improve standards overall so that getting into a certain school (religious or independent or whatever) does not automatically give you an edge over your peers.

My son goes to a 'state funded faith school' and he is of no religion, there are also many other religions, not related to the 'schools religion' they are one of the best schools in the area, and faith does not determine your place at the school, many people will not apply because of the attached faith.

Local Catholic school won’t let your kid in, eh?

Bastards. Make them STOP being Catholic to suit you.

People can meet with people who share their own beliefs, should political parties let anyone who doesn't share their views in as members in order to be inclusive?

Totally agree OP this is a big issue there I live.

There are squillions of faith schools that receive govt funding round here. C of E, Jewish, RC.

In my locality there are more faith primary schools than non. (Noting that all schools have a duty for Christian stuff. Many ignore it but it's the law. Schools can apply to have the legally required act of daily worship changed to a different religion but I don't think none is ok. Not checked for a while though)

So in practice loads of children are essentially barred from their nearby schools and end up with long journeys. Schools round here are oversubscribed mainly.

In the past there has been trouble with illegal questions being asked/ donations. This area was in the press for being really bad.

That I hope was clamped down on but there's still the point that meeting criteria is a proxy for certain things. Because it involves being able to do something regularly and often for years. Parents who have various things in their situations are way less likely to be able to meet that.

Schools that don't put sibling high up on criteria are a nightmare for parents.

Issues in faith schools for some that follow a more fundamentalist branch have been flagged for big problems many times but nothing seems to be done as there's a reluctance to interfere.

Aside from all that I also have concerns about private schools for certain sects.

State-funded religious schools are in part funded by the very people they discriminate against.

If schools want to brainwash kids into believing whatever nonsense they want to pedlle, fine, go ahead. They can do it on their own money though.

The reason it won't happen at least for c of E is that the church owns the land and also puts in some money.

So it's just impossible unless there is suddenly loads of spare govt money and church agrees to sell/ get rent for land/ buildings.

Susie sadly some private schools for certain groups are what most people would see as terrible for the children.

We're not in an area with faith schools as an issue. Faith schools that include religion really shouldn't be part of the state system. They should be additional to it.

What's happened @storminborehamwood?

@Missgemini

I think we should be trying to improve the other schools that aren't doing so well, instead of being annoyed at the religious schools. Why do we think religious schools do better though?

I agree that other schools should be better, but these things are connected.

The faith school has extra funding from the church = can pay for better things = better results.

Also, this is a sweeping generalisation but religious families are more likely to be family oriented with both parents involved, possibly stricter parents too, so better behaved kids.

If the ambitious parents / parents who give a shit (and aren't phased by lying) fake being religious to get into the school, then they are taken out of the other secondaries' pool of students, and this has a negative impact on those schools.

Is there a shortage of school places where you are?

Missgemini

It's not 'annoyance'. That trivialises the issues imo.

My thoughts- it would be good to know if you think any of these are issues and what could be done?

There are squillions of faith schools that receive govt funding round here. C of E, Jewish, RC.

In my locality there are more faith primary schools than non. (Noting that all schools have a duty for Christian stuff. Many ignore it but it's the law. Schools can apply to have the legally required act of daily worship changed to a different religion but I don't think none is ok. Not checked for a while though)

So in practice loads of children are essentially barred from their nearby schools and end up with long journeys. Schools round here are oversubscribed mainly.

In the past there has been trouble with illegal questions being asked/ donations. This area was in the press for being really bad.

That I hope was clamped down on but there's still the point that meeting criteria is a proxy for certain things. Because it involves being able to do something regularly and often for years. Parents who have various things in their situations are way less likely to be able to meet that.

Schools that don't put sibling high up on criteria are a nightmare for parents.

Issues in faith schools for some that follow a more fundamentalist branch have been flagged for big problems many times but nothing seems to be done as there's a reluctance to interfere.

Aside from all that I also have concerns about private schools for certain sects.

@storminborehamwood - Jewish schools in borehamwood won’t let your non Jewish kid in? And now even though you don’t practice the Jewish religion (legal criteria to get into Jewish school) you think your child should get in anyway? And what happens then when you don’t want your child to attend Jewish services, to eat kosher and so on.

There are state schools in borehamwood which were set up and part funded by the Jewish community in order to educate Jewish children in their religion and allow them to eat kosher food and celebrate their holidays. If there is space, because they are state schools, they will admit non Jewish children. But there usually isn’t space.

I don’t see any problem at all that there are state funded schools that are there to fulfill local community needs. Like Jewish schools in borehamwood. I think that it’s right that schools for people of the Jewish religion are allowed to select people of the Jewish religion to attend. It makes sense.

You may wish your child to go to a Jewish school when you don’t practice that religion because they tend to get good academic results. But it’s absolutely not unfair that they are able to select Jewish kids for priority entry when that’s the purpose of the school.

Because if you're not Jewish or RC or c of E and for many meeting certain religious criteria.

Then there's no option at all within a reasonable distance.

That's discriminatory due to religion.

I don't know the situation in borehamwood in terms of what options there are locally etc.

As a general point though in some areas it is a problem because so many schools have faith criteria and schools are oversubscribed. Most years there are can't remember. 100s of children with no school place at all.

Also @storminborehamwood no one is “marking your kid down” because they don’t have priority for a Jewish school. A Jewish school is the most appropriate place for a Jewish child. Sounds like a non denominational school may be the best place for your child.

Out of interest why would a person in general not be happy with their child eating kosher food, having time off for Jewish holidays instead of Christian?

If there are not enough applicants from Jewish families then non Jewish children will get places. That's an automatic problem?

@CayrolBaaaskin

Also *@storminborehamwood* no one is “marking your kid down” because they don’t have priority for a Jewish school. A Jewish school is the most appropriate place for a Jewish child. Sounds like a non denominational school may be the best place for your child.

What about the issues over the years with state funded schools for children who are members of certain sects?

@NiceGerbil - my post just got deleted so don’t propose to retype but basically there is a a fair bit of low level anti semitism in borehamwood. Some non Jewish locals blame Jews for high house prices and because there are many shops and businesses to suit the Jewish population that they don’t like (eg kosher food shops). There are Jewish schools that are oversubscribed in borehamwood which are good even great schools but non denominational schools that are undersubscribed. So plenty of places in schools but the best schools are Jewish and lots of Jews want entry.