To think faith schools should be forced to change their application process?

[storminborehamwood]

Most people accept that you can't discriminate against someone for their religion. So why can faith schools do it when it comes to kids getting a place?

AIBU to think state-funded faith schools should be forced to remove religious criteria from applications?

I know state-funded faith schools get extra funding from religion and that supposedly justifies giving priority to kids with religious ties.

I just can't understand why it's illegal to mark someone down for a job application based on their religion, but it's okay to do it for a school application.

'The thing with Jewish schools in the UK is that now they are not able to discriminate against children of mothers who underwent non orthodox conversions. '

Court case jfs right?

@Just10moreminutesplease - the view that religion should not be taught in schools is not a view I share. Not is it a view that the vast majority of Jews in the Uk share (I can only talk of my own religion). For us our schools are an important community hub. As I said though our religion has a lot of learning needed - practically it would be difficult if not impossible for me to teach all that at home.

As I said I think religious state schools are an important part of diversity and tolerance. Of course they should be inspected and teach within limits. But I think it’s a great thing we have such schools and I hope we can continue to have them.

There are issues with schools of all faiths.

My comments earlier apply to all.

@NiceGerbil - all religious schools (jfs case indeed) must only select on the basis of something the child or parents do. Not what they are. So it must be about practice not birth.

@NiceGerbil

I don't think money is irrelevant, because if no one's getting more of it because of their faith, then no one's being treated unfairly here.

As for the other things, are you talking about a school that refuses to allow students from other faiths full stop, and would rather have empty seats? Or are you talking about an oversubscribed school giving priority to members of its own faith? Those are two very different situations. I think most people here are talking about the latter.

But even for the former, while it's not something I would personally choose, it's the parents' prerogative to limit their children's exposure to those whose faiths and behaviour they disagree with. If you hold certain values, it's much harder to instill those in young children when many of their classmates are openly saying or doing the opposite and telling them that it's fine. This is the same reason many parents choose not to send their children to academically-superior religious schools whose teachings they don't agree with - they don't want their children being taught beliefs and values they don't agree with. And that's fine, just like it's fine for religious parents to prefer religious schools.

I don’t know what you mean @NiceGerbil. What is the issue with these “sects”? Ultimately if anyone practices those religions they can go to the school. That’s the law. No need to be halachically Jewish to go to Jewish school- you need a certificate saying your child has attended the requisite number of times. So if you want your child to go to a Jewish sects school - send them along to the services.

@NiceGerbil yep my DH's Alma mater. I know a young lady from my shul who got accepted recently, her mum isn't Jewish but dad is, is considered Jewish by my synagogue as she grew up in the faith. She chose JFS over Jcoss because she felt JFS was more academic.

I personally prefer jcoss tbh which accepts non Jewish children /JFS has changed 4 headmasters in 7 years even though the results are good but Jcoss is catching up even though it's a young school.

@onlychildhamster - I agree in part why Jewish schools get better marks. But the reason many Jewish parents want their children to go to Jewish schools is as you say kosher food, holidays, anti semitism and Jewish education.

Jewish schools are for kids who practice the Jewish religion unless there are spare places. I don’t see an issue with that

To clarify I mean I don’t have an issue with selection of an appropriate school on the basis of religion. Not that some people are being excluded but that the most appropriate people for a religious school are those who practice that religion

'it's the parents' prerogative to limit their children's exposure to those whose faiths and behaviour they disagree with. '

???

There seems to be a strong focus on animosity etc here.

The fact is that in some areas if you're not the right religion then there are no local primary schools that will take you.

How is that ok?

@PurpleOkapi - state religious schools cannot select on the basis of religion unless they are oversubscribed. So if there are not Jewish children to fill all places for a Jewish school, anyone must be allowed to attend.

@NiceGerbil - is not ok for there not to be a school place. But is that really the case? Or is it just not a desirable school place?

Also @NiceGerbil - that’s a lack of school places rather than anything to do with religious schools

@CayrolBaaaskin

I don’t know what you mean *@NiceGerbil*. What is the issue with these “sects”? Ultimately if anyone practices those religions they can go to the school. That’s the law. No need to be halachically Jewish to go to Jewish school- you need a certificate saying your child has attended the requisite number of times. So if you want your child to go to a Jewish sects school - send them along to the services.

So you're not aware of the issues with state and private schools over the years with closed religious communities?

I find it really worrying and have done for years.

One closed Christian sect is very local and the children used to go state and then when technology moved on they opened their own school.

Wtf is going on there? I have no idea and I doubt the council does. This bothers me a lot.

Also the issues with some schools state and private for a closed Jewish community.

Things which are in immediate vicinity are understandably a focus.

This is a more general conversation though surely.

@CayrolBaaaskin I understand the desperation of parents who perhaps don't have a good local secular state school and therefore want a place at the local faith school which has good results- be it Jewish, Christian etc. But the reality is that if a school has good results because of structural reasons i.e. smart children choosing Jewish school over prestigious non Jewish schools, your child is not going to be any smarter just because he or she shares a school with such children!

I do agree Jewish schools are meant for Jewish children. This could be out of date as my husband was in JFS over 10 years ago but a significant amount of the school day was spent on Hebrew and Jewish studies. At hasmonean, it was as much as 30%. Also the post GCSE Israel trip was a big milestone, almost all children would participate as it is heavily subsidized by the Israeli government and you are only eligible if you have a Jewish parent, I think. Non Jewish children would be excluded from it. In some jewish schools, a lot of children's friendships are centred around synagogue friendships, family friends etc, connections you would only have if you were Jewish. I know my DH and his sisters found it harder socially as their mum was a orthodox convert so they knew less people. I cannot imagine how it would be like for a non Jew.

The thing is I agree in principle that faith schools should be open to everyone who is willing to learn more about the religion but Jewish schools are very different to Christian schools (as someone who has only studied at Christian schools). It is much more tribal (for lack of a better word), Jewish education takes up far more time, Jewish rituals and customs are much more complicated (I lived for 3 years in an orthodox household and it probably took me over a year to grasp the basics). It is just not accessible to the average non Jew.

I attended a standard county primary school in a fairly white area of Manchester mainly Christian families (that was just the demograph of the area) my high school was very obviously C of E but had people of all faiths and none. Much more multi cultural in my opinion and a much more cohesive learning experience than my none religious primary, my sixth form was also very multilingual and Catholic.
I don't think the issue is about the religious exclusion as a stand alone issue its about restrictive admission policies. Schools should be free to be faith schools but not to restrict their pupils due to their faith. I wholeheartedly believe my secondary school experience was formative fir the better.

[quote CayrolBaaaskin]@NiceGerbil - is not ok for there not to be a school place. But is that really the case? Or is it just not a desirable school place?[/quote]
I mean no place at all.

@NiceGerbil - I have no idea what is going on at the schools you refer to or what or where they are. But state religious schools are inspected (more rigorously IMO than secular) and required to comply with certain standards. So I’m not concerned about all religious schools. If there are issues with religious (or non religious) schools, they should of course be dealt with. But if it’s just prejudice, that’s something wla

@NiceGerbil - not an issue with religious schools at all then

@NiceGerbil JFS, Jcoss and Yavneh are not closed. They are Ofsted regulated, they teach the national curriculum, they have many non Jewish teachers (Jcoss principal isn't Jewish, I think), the children do their GCSEs and A levels- a higher than average percentage go onto Oxbridge. There is a distinction between them and the haredi schools.

Most people in the mainstream Jewish community disagree in some part with the educational practices of haredi schools. But no non Jewish parent would even want to send their child to a school that teaches very little English or maths so the fact that they don't allow non Jews is a moot point.

@onlychildhamster - I agree re child not smarter because go to school with more academic children. But unfortunately many don’t agree

Not being concerned about religious schools is the same as not being concerned about any schools.

There have been issues raised over and over and little action.

If it's your thing to trust to the govt to act etc then that's up to you.

I feel differently.

That's all there is to it.

@NiceGerbil

'it's the parents' prerogative to limit their children's exposure to those whose faiths and behaviour they disagree with. '

???

There seems to be a strong focus on animosity etc here.

The fact is that in some areas if you're not the right religion then there are no local primary schools that will take you.

How is that ok?

Many secular parents wouldn't want their children attending a religious school because they don't want their children to be taught those beliefs. For religious parents, the same is true in reverse. Animosity may play some role for some people on both sides, but for the most part, wanting to raise your child with a particular set of beliefs and values doesn't indicate animosity towards those who believe differently.

If there's not a secular school available in some areas, that's definitely a problem, but it's the government's problem and the government's responsibility to solve it. Telling religious schools that they have to admit non-religious students doesn't solve it, because those children still have no option but to attend a religious school. Effectively forcing students to attend religious schools when their parents would prefer a secular school would be no less of a problem.

A proper solution would be to give parents a real choice between secular and religious schools, but that would require the local government to build and fund more secular schools. Personally, and again picking religions at random, I don't think it's appropriate to tell a Muslim student that they have to go to a Catholic school if they want to go to school at all. Whether the Catholic school admits them or not is a separate issue, because even if it did, that situation would still be unacceptable. Supposing it were actually happening, of course, because I don't entirely believe you that it is. All children should have the option of attending a non-religious school.

Hold on

So schools catering to Christian/ Jewish closed groups are off the agenda? Why?

And I posted my list of other issues with faith schools upthread. I have many, this is only one.

@onlychildhamster - any school (including charedi) cannot bar non Jews. Only have religious criteria for entry. I have many family who send kids to ultra religious schools- wouldn’t dream of it myself as it’s not my ethos but they couldn’t bar dds if they met the practice criteria.

There are of course illegal religious schools in Stamford hill and other places that are teaching only religion in Yiddish. But that’s not what op is about (nor do I agree with such - kids should get a good standard of secular education IMO).