to think "no woman aborts a baby lightly" is untrue and unhelpful?

[ZoeCM]

I've noticed this phrase being used a lot following the news about Texas. I'm pro-choice, and I don't think it helps our cause.

There are women who have abortions lightly. It's not a myth started by the Daily Mail. I don't even think it's necessarily even that rare.

There are women who actively want a baby in the near future, are in stable relationships, aren't even using contraception, but still decide to abort because the timing isn't 100% perfect: they don't want to cancel their holiday abroad, or give birth until the extension on their house is finished. Trust me, it happens. Does anyone really think those women agonised over whether the holiday/extension was more important than the baby, before painfully including that abortion was the only option? Of course not. And that's fine. Women shouldn't have to ask if their reasons for aborting are "good enough".

Then there are the women who are on their fifth or sixth abortion - workers at abortion clinics will confirm that this does happen. It seems unlikely that those women agonised over their decisions either, because presumably they would have put some long-term contraception in place to stop it happening again. I expect most of them come from pretty traumatic backgrounds, but that doesn't mean their decision to abort isn't made perfectly casually.

This phrase is a gift for pro-lifers, because it's so easily disproved: many of them will have stories about women they know who've had abortions without a second thought. A better argument would simply be that it doesn't matter why a woman wants an abortion: she should be allowed one because it's her body and her choice.

Did you not feel shame?

What is there to be ashamed of?

@Kitchendrama1 why should anyone feel shame?

definitely don't think people should be able to to go for multiple abortions

So the second time, they should be forced to have a baby they don’t want? What do you think life would be like for that unwanted child? For the mother forced to give birth?

I think it works both ways. Some women do it without hesitation and never look back. Some agonise and are filled with regret.

I’ve had one. The mental health fall out has been big. Even though it felt right at the time. It is so individual. As are most things in life.

Plus most people have strong views on the matter.

@Kitchendrama1

I never forgot the time when I was a student nurse in the gynae ward, I was 18 and I had another girl around 19 in the side room gettings prepped for a termination. It wasnt surgical as she was too far gone, i found her laughing away chatting to mates and puffing a joint out the window when I had to take away her baby. It was the most horrific thing i have ever seen. The wee thing she passed was a baby, fitted into a little box and I was horrified at her. She wasnt sobbing, didnt give a shit and came back a few more times for the same. I am pro choice and have had to make choices myself but it left me scarred and upset.

@Hoodie23

I have an abortion in my late teens. We used protection but obviously failed.

From the moment I found out I woke with panic attacks every night. We were struggling financially and honestly i just didn't want to me a mum.

As soon as I made the decision I felt relief. I was 7 weeks by the time I had the abortion.

I was very depressed after and started on anti depressants. I was so ashamed of myself (still am). I don't regret the decision I'm just ashamed I was in that situation.

It was also the end of our relationship as it made me realise I didn't want to be with him.

As I was there. There was a girl from Ireland that had flown over for the same thing. She literally had to fly back the same day. She was crying the entire time she was sat waiting because she clearly didn't want to go through with it.

There was also a girl that was 20 weeks pregnant. Who was aborting because her boyfriend cheated on her and honestly couldn't care less.

I don't agree with abortions after 12 weeks, only under special circumstances and definitely don't think people should be able to to go for multiple abortions.

So, for clarity, if a woman or girl disovers they are pregnant and the foetus reaches 12 weeks, then that woman or girl must give birth? Is that what you are saying?

And if a woman or girl becomes pregnant and doesn't want to, or can't for whatever reason, continue with the pregnancy, if they've had a previous termination they should be forced to continue with that pregnancy?

It's really sad you feel ashamed. I hope you can forgive yourself and find peace

hairymorag I understand that must have been upsetting but would it have been better for her to have kept that baby? Surely not

I think it should be up to each woman whether to terminate or not .However it is a big thing to go through. There is so much contraception now readily avaliable that surely multiple abortions could be avoided .I think many women sometimes dont have a choice as their BF often talk them out of it as well .I dont think that many women would be casual about it ,it has an emotional impact too

Sorry to hear that @hairymorag. That sounds incredibly tough.

I’m pro choice too but know would struggle with that.
Like I’ve said, some women don’t glance back.
Some will always remember and not be quite the same again.

Perhaps she doesn’t believe an abortion at 50% of the development is right? Espically as doctors can see premature babies born 24 weeks

@hairymorag

I never forgot the time when I was a student nurse in the gynae ward, I was 18 and I had another girl around 19 in the side room gettings prepped for a termination. It wasnt surgical as she was too far gone, i found her laughing away chatting to mates and puffing a joint out the window when I had to take away her baby. It was the most horrific thing i have ever seen. The wee thing she passed was a baby, fitted into a little box and I was horrified at her. She wasnt sobbing, didnt give a shit and came back a few more times for the same. I am pro choice and have had to make choices myself but it left me scarred and upset.

So you’d feel better if the women was traumatised?

minipie as i said i am pro choice but this same person came back a few times, After that experience I was shocked she didnt sort out her contraception.

@hairymorag

I never forgot the time when I was a student nurse in the gynae ward, I was 18 and I had another girl around 19 in the side room gettings prepped for a termination. It wasnt surgical as she was too far gone, i found her laughing away chatting to mates and puffing a joint out the window when I had to take away her baby. It was the most horrific thing i have ever seen. The wee thing she passed was a baby, fitted into a little box and I was horrified at her. She wasnt sobbing, didnt give a shit and came back a few more times for the same. I am pro choice and have had to make choices myself but it left me scarred and upset.

Cool story bro

@hairymorag

I never forgot the time when I was a student nurse in the gynae ward, I was 18 and I had another girl around 19 in the side room gettings prepped for a termination. It wasnt surgical as she was too far gone, i found her laughing away chatting to mates and puffing a joint out the window when I had to take away her baby. It was the most horrific thing i have ever seen. The wee thing she passed was a baby, fitted into a little box and I was horrified at her. She wasnt sobbing, didnt give a shit and came back a few more times for the same. I am pro choice and have had to make choices myself but it left me scarred and upset.

Would you have preferred her to have been devastated and affected her entire life? To have had a baby she didn't want? To raise a child when she didn't want to?

Why do we insist on women being emotionally scarred? Why can't we just be glad she made a choice she (not you, because your moral values are irrelevant to her life) is happy with?

And if she really did go on to have another three late abortions, why the hell didn't someone think to ask her how her life was? Why didn't somebody say 'Is this woman being abused?

@FfrothiCoffi

I had an abortion. I wouldn’t say I took it ‘lightly’ but I did not agonise over the decision, and I have never had a moments regret over it. It absolutely was the right thing to do, and I feel no shame. I agree with you OP. Abortions shouldn’t only be considered ok when they’ve been traumatic for the woman having it.

Wasn't that how aborting babies began though? I thought that 2 Dr's had to sign agreeing thst continuing the pregnancy would be traumatic to the woman/baby? I don't think it was supposed to be contraception or that you didn't want to cancel your holiday plans? Is it no longer the case that Dr's have to agree?

I think there are two 'types' of women (and which 'type' you are can alter due to where you are at that point and you may flit between the two)

One when gets a positive pregnancy test sees it as 'a baby' - those women are the ones who I believe will think about all ramifications and so on

The other gets a positive pregnancy test and sees it as 'a pregnancy' - and if she doesn't want to be pregnant will be able to make a decision more easily

Neither are wrong

All these saying there should be a limit, imagine this scenario...
1 woman

Pregnant at 16 has an abortion not ready to be a mum
A few years later her contraception fails. Another abortion.
Then she plans a pregnancy, but very early on her partner becomes abusive. She ends the pregnancy and escapes domestic violence

Shes now 30, and single. She's raped after a night out, discovers she's pregnant to the rapist. Aborts so she's not raising a rapists child

Then she's finally in a happy relationship, pregnant but the child won't make it after the birth, it's not developed as expected so she aborts to save herself the heartache of continuing the pregnancy

Thats 5 abortions. Which pregnancy/pregnancies should she have continued?

@mynameisbrian

minipie as i said i am pro choice but this same person came back a few times, After that experience I was shocked she didnt sort out her contraception.

Maybe it’s shocking she didn’t sort her contraception (though you never know her circumstances/mental state) but it would be even more shocking to force her to keep a baby she doesn’t want surely.

The point is she is already pregnant, at that point the only choices are allow termination or force a woman to keep a baby she doesn’t want. I will never think forcing someone to have an unwanted child is the right option no matter what the circumstances

@hairymorag

I never forgot the time when I was a student nurse in the gynae ward, I was 18 and I had another girl around 19 in the side room gettings prepped for a termination. It wasnt surgical as she was too far gone, i found her laughing away chatting to mates and puffing a joint out the window when I had to take away her baby. It was the most horrific thing i have ever seen. The wee thing she passed was a baby, fitted into a little box and I was horrified at her. She wasnt sobbing, didnt give a shit and came back a few more times for the same. I am pro choice and have had to make choices myself but it left me scarred and upset.

Would it have been less horrific for you if she was sobbing and screaming?

She could have just found out and didn't feel connected to the pregnancy at all. She may have been in a relationship that started getting violent after she was pregnant. There may have been complications for her or the fetus.

Surely it would be better for the person going through that not to be psychologically damaged by it.

Wasn't that how aborting babies began though? I thought that 2 Dr's had to sign agreeing thst continuing the pregnancy would be traumatic to the woman/baby? I don't think it was supposed to be contraception or that you didn't want to cancel your holiday plans? Is it no longer the case that Dr's have to agree?

No, that’s still the case as far as I know.
I wasn’t traumatised by the abortion. I would have been traumatised had I had to go through with the pregnancy though (and nothing to do with wanting to go on holiday). That was a good enough reason.
Thankfully, it isn’t a condition of an abortion that you have to regret it and be traumatised by it afterwards.

@hairymorag

I never forgot the time when I was a student nurse in the gynae ward, I was 18 and I had another girl around 19 in the side room gettings prepped for a termination. It wasnt surgical as she was too far gone, i found her laughing away chatting to mates and puffing a joint out the window when I had to take away her baby. It was the most horrific thing i have ever seen. The wee thing she passed was a baby, fitted into a little box and I was horrified at her. She wasnt sobbing, didnt give a shit and came back a few more times for the same. I am pro choice and have had to make choices myself but it left me scarred and upset.

And you were there every time she came back were you. How co incidental. I hope they also had some more mature and sympathetic nurses working on that ward who realised that there was possibly something very sad going on in the life of a 19 year old having a very late termination. Maybe she had learning difficulties, an abusive pimp or partner, had been thrown out by her family, though obviously you didn’t bother to find out but just treated her like the dirt you thought she was.

I can understand that it was upsetting for a young nurse, and it affected you, and I doubt you were offered much support, I would hope young nurses nowadays are given more support in all difficult situations.

I don’t think @hairymorag meant she wanted the young woman to be traumatised. Not at all. But to take some level of seriousness to the situation.

Although I’m pro choice (Ffs I’ve done it) I suppose I find it difficult if some women are blasé about it. No need to sob or be depressed. Just quiet contemplation and respect for staff who are dealing with the (literal) aftermath of it.

Tell me @Islamorada , how exactly does one use abortion as contraception? It is called pro choice.