to think "no woman aborts a baby lightly" is untrue and unhelpful?

[ZoeCM]

I've noticed this phrase being used a lot following the news about Texas. I'm pro-choice, and I don't think it helps our cause.

There are women who have abortions lightly. It's not a myth started by the Daily Mail. I don't even think it's necessarily even that rare.

There are women who actively want a baby in the near future, are in stable relationships, aren't even using contraception, but still decide to abort because the timing isn't 100% perfect: they don't want to cancel their holiday abroad, or give birth until the extension on their house is finished. Trust me, it happens. Does anyone really think those women agonised over whether the holiday/extension was more important than the baby, before painfully including that abortion was the only option? Of course not. And that's fine. Women shouldn't have to ask if their reasons for aborting are "good enough".

Then there are the women who are on their fifth or sixth abortion - workers at abortion clinics will confirm that this does happen. It seems unlikely that those women agonised over their decisions either, because presumably they would have put some long-term contraception in place to stop it happening again. I expect most of them come from pretty traumatic backgrounds, but that doesn't mean their decision to abort isn't made perfectly casually.

This phrase is a gift for pro-lifers, because it's so easily disproved: many of them will have stories about women they know who've had abortions without a second thought. A better argument would simply be that it doesn't matter why a woman wants an abortion: she should be allowed one because it's her body and her choice.

@StoneofDestiny

In 2019, 40% of women undergoing abortions had had one or more previous abortions

So?

@HerRoyalRisesAgain

What do you can work out? eh?

It autocorrected. What is there to work out?

It’s totally true. I had a friend I’d known for 15 years who had three abortions in 18 months (probably less) because her dickhead ex refused to wear condoms and she seemed equally unwilling to sort out contraception.

@ViciousJackdaw

There is a reason behind every behaviour. Why is someone so desperate for sex that they are prepared to take that risk with a ONS? Are they lonely as hell? Self esteem down the toilet? In the throes of mania? Why doesn't someone fully understand the implications of antibiotics and the pill? Did the GP not explain properly? Do they have the mental capacity to fully understand? Do they need the appropriate info in 'Plain English'?

Has it occurred to you that some people just feel entitled to have whatever they want? It often really doesn't go deeper than that, whether it's abortions, party drugs or anything else.

Childbirth costs, yes, but something people want.

So it's OK to bring the NHS to its knees with thousands of pounds for pregnancy and childbirth if it's something you planned for? But it's not OK to use a few hundred pounds of NHS treatment if you get pregnant but dont wish to be pregnant? Are you worried about the NHS or not?

In 2019, 40% of women undergoing abortions had had one or more previous abortions

And? In 30ish years of being fertile and sexually active it's pretty reasonable to have had more than one unwanted pregnancy in that time. It happens.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

Its genuinely amazing to me how many pro lifers always know multiple women having abortion after abortion just because they don't want to use condoms, or who have several late term abortions, or who keep having abortions because it doesn't fit in with their holiday plans.

Where do all these very judgemental prolifers meet these women, let alone get friendly enough to be told the personal details of their fertility?

Someone posted here saying a baby didn't quite fit in with their plans so they terminated. No traumatic situation, no poverty, no abuse, just didn't fit in with work and house plans. Why are you so determined to ignore this point of view? Why are you so determined to push the agenda that lots of women don't take it lightly when there's plenty of evidence to the contrary right here on this thread?

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

Childbirth costs, yes, but something people want.

So it's OK to bring the NHS to its knees with thousands of pounds for pregnancy and childbirth if it's something you planned for? But it's not OK to use a few hundred pounds of NHS treatment if you get pregnant but dont wish to be pregnant? Are you worried about the NHS or not?

In 2019, 40% of women undergoing abortions had had one or more previous abortions

And? In 30ish years of being fertile and sexually active it's pretty reasonable to have had more than one unwanted pregnancy in that time. It happens.

I'm very willing to bet it's a very small percentage of women having a very large percentage of the total abortions. If 'it happens' from being fertile and sexually active then the majority of women would have had more than one unwanted pregnancy and neither the statistics nor my personal experience reflect that.

I don’t think it’s always true. Some women just doesn’t want to be pregnant and think practically with little emotion attached to having a termination (like myself and many of my friends)

There doesn’t need to be any sentimental statements on why a women chooses to have a termination or reasons it’s her choice and that’s it

This includes the remark about women on their 5th or 6th abortion - some of those women will be involved in abusive relationships with reproductive coercion.

Of the women who have several abortions, the percentage who do so because of reproductive coercion is almost certainly minuscule. There are a lot of horrible abusers out there, but it's pretty much impossible for a man to stop his partner using contraception unless he watches her twenty-four hours a day.

The simplest explanation is usually the correct one. If a woman is on her sixth abortion, she probably just doesn't consider abortion a big deal. She may simply see it as an alternative to bothering with contraception; she may have a pattern of deliberately getting pregnant in the hope of saving failing relationships, knowing that she can always abort if he leaves her anyway. Regardless, it's her decision, and that's what we should encourage pro-lifers to respect.

Someone posted here saying a baby didn't quite fit in with their plans so they terminated. No traumatic situation, no poverty, no abuse, just didn't fit in with work and house plans. Why are you so determined to ignore this point of view? Why are you so determined to push the agenda that lots of women don't take it lightly when there's plenty of evidence to the contrary right here on this thread?

I'm not ignoring it, there doesn't have to be a reason other than "I don't want to be pregnant".

The overwhelming majority of prolifers I have spoken to over the years have all stated they personally know multiple women having multiple abortions for no reason whatsoever and refuse to use contraception, as well as women having multiple later term abortions. I find it fascinating how these women are happy to divulge all this information to people who are so devoutly prolife, and how people with such different outlooks on life even move in the same circles let alone become close enough to be talking about if they use condoms or not.

If 'it happens' from being fertile and sexually active then the majority of women would have had more than one unwanted pregnancy and neither the statistics nor my personal experience reflect that.

Of course it happens. I'm not sure that people irl would tell you their child was accidental, and abortions literally exist because people do get pregnant without meaning to

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

Someone posted here saying a baby didn't quite fit in with their plans so they terminated. No traumatic situation, no poverty, no abuse, just didn't fit in with work and house plans. Why are you so determined to ignore this point of view? Why are you so determined to push the agenda that lots of women don't take it lightly when there's plenty of evidence to the contrary right here on this thread?

I'm not ignoring it, there doesn't have to be a reason other than "I don't want to be pregnant".

The overwhelming majority of prolifers I have spoken to over the years have all stated they personally know multiple women having multiple abortions for no reason whatsoever and refuse to use contraception, as well as women having multiple later term abortions. I find it fascinating how these women are happy to divulge all this information to people who are so devoutly prolife, and how people with such different outlooks on life even move in the same circles let alone become close enough to be talking about if they use condoms or not.

If 'it happens' from being fertile and sexually active then the majority of women would have had more than one unwanted pregnancy and neither the statistics nor my personal experience reflect that.

Of course it happens. I'm not sure that people irl would tell you their child was accidental, and abortions literally exist because people do get pregnant without meaning to

I can't speak for them. I'm not a pro lifer and can only speak for myself. I've met plenty of women who really just don't consider it a big deal. You don't need to dig into the why or childhood trauma or whether they're lonely. They just are not that arsed, full stop. Several have posted on this very thread saying so and for some reason you're ignoring it.

An accidental pregnancy isn't necessarily an unwanted pregnancy. Plenty of people are happy to keep a pregnancy even if it's not exactly the right situation or the right time, so not sure what your point is.

Thegirlcat I think you are the one who was not listening in science and are quoting exactly the sort of misinformation I am talking about.
From the NHS itself
www.nhs.uk/pregnancy/week-by-week/1-to-12/12-weeks/

Has it occurred to you that some people just feel entitled to have whatever they want? It often really doesn't go deeper than that, whether it's abortions, party drugs or anything else

Bollocks.

Firstly, any woman is entitled to have as many abortions as she wants. It is perfectly legal.

Secondly, there is always a reason for entitled behaviour. 'Problem entitlement', if you like. That reason might simply be that they were spoilt as a child? Maybe they were a bully who was never taken to task? We are born as blank slates and as far as I know, an inflated sense of entitlement is not hereditary. It is a learnt, or reinforced behaviour.

For women who are having repeat abortions, I wonder why LARC isn’t advised / recommended? That way, they could avoid future pregnancies until they are ready.

I think abortion (IMO) is a necessary part of healthcare, but trivializing it to the point of comparing it with treating worms makes me feel very uncomfortable.

More emphasis on preventing unwanted pregnancies is needed rather than a complete lack of personal responsibility ( applies to both men and women!)

@ViciousJackdaw

Has it occurred to you that some people just feel entitled to have whatever they want? It often really doesn't go deeper than that, whether it's abortions, party drugs or anything else

Bollocks.

Firstly, any woman is entitled to have as many abortions as she wants. It is perfectly legal.

Secondly, there is always a reason for entitled behaviour. 'Problem entitlement', if you like. That reason might simply be that they were spoilt as a child? Maybe they were a bully who was never taken to task? We are born as blank slates and as far as I know, an inflated sense of entitlement is not hereditary. It is a learnt, or reinforced behaviour.

You said bollocks and then you said any woman is entitled to have as many as she wants.

Facepalm.

I don't understand what you're going on about here. Yes maybe they were spoiled as a child....so?! Why is that relevant?

@Rozziie Not that it's any of your business but the first pregnancy was accidental, I was on the injection so no user error involved just bad luck to be part of the 1-2% failure rate. The second pregnancy, nine months the later, was actually planned because the timing/situation was better at that stage and we were ready for DC2 then. Got pregnant the first month of trying which was brilliant because we'd needed fertility clinic involvement to help the process with DC1.

It'll really piss you off, but I had another unplanned pregnancy which was my final DC and was on LARC when it happened so again, no user error possible and just fell into the failure margin. For all it was unplanned we were in a situation where it was not unmanageable so I had them, if it had been unmanageable then I wouldn't have. That's how choice works, I get to choose whether to put myself through it. I already know if I was to ever get pregnant again - a situation that would likely result in nine months of HG followed by me dying of a uterine rupture - then I'd terminate.

@Idyllic

For women who are having repeat abortions, I wonder why LARC isn’t advised / recommended? That way, they could avoid future pregnancies until they are ready.

I think abortion (IMO) is a necessary part of healthcare, but trivializing it to the point of comparing it with treating worms makes me feel very uncomfortable.

More emphasis on preventing unwanted pregnancies is needed rather than a complete lack of personal responsibility ( applies to both men and women!)

Exactly. But common sense isn't popular on this thread...get ready to be called judgemental or a pro lifer.

[quote Clocktopus]@Rozziie Not that it's any of your business but the first pregnancy was accidental, I was on the injection so no user error involved just bad luck to be part of the 1-2% failure rate. The second pregnancy, nine months the later, was actually planned because the timing/situation was better at that stage and we were ready for DC2 then. Got pregnant the first month of trying which was brilliant because we'd needed fertility clinic involvement to help the process with DC1.

It'll really piss you off, but I had another unplanned pregnancy which was my final DC and was on LARC when it happened so again, no user error possible and just fell into the failure margin. For all it was unplanned we were in a situation where it was not unmanageable so I had them, if it had been unmanageable then I wouldn't have. That's how choice works, I get to choose whether to put myself through it. I already know if I was to ever get pregnant again - a situation that would likely result in nine months of HG followed by me dying of a uterine rupture - then I'd terminate.[/quote]
I couldn't care less, I'm only asking out of interest to help understand. What was your second LARC that failed? It must be incredibly unlucky to have had two fail on you in short succession. Did you find out if there might have been some medical cause that hormonal contraception didn't work for you?

Rozziie

Thanks! I’m waiting 😁

More emphasis on preventing unwanted pregnancies is needed rather than a complete lack of personal responsibility ( applies to both men and women!)

It should be a three-pronged approach.

• Education. Education about contraception of course but also education in general because of the opportunities and choices/options it provides, education improves outcomes for women.

• Safe, legal abortion. No woman should have to carry a pregnancy she doesn't want to carry or take on all the risks that pregnancy and childbirth carry not to mention the wider impact of raising a child.

• Access. There should be free, unhindered access to both of the above with the removal of as many systematic barriers as possible. Access to education, access to contraception, access to abortion.

Remember too, there is no such thing as no abortion. Even if it was outlawed tomorrow or strict limits placed on who qualifies for abortion, women would still seek it and a lot of them would die because of it.

I'm only asking out of interest to help understand. What was your second LARC that failed?

None of your business.

@Rozzie

The testicular reference was in response to your assertion that women should not feel 'entitled' to abortions. You knew that really though, didn't you?

I was attempting to explain that there is always a reason for truly entitled behaviour. Do you need me to use shorter words? Fewer syllables?

Do you need me to use shorter words? Fewer syllables?

Hand puppets and a catchy song...?

They just are not that arsed, full stop. Several have posted on this very thread saying so and for some reason you're ignoring it.

I'm not ignoring it at all. I don't need women to have deep rooted psychological reasons for not wishing to be pregnant. I'm just wondering how so many avid prolifers know so many women who have multiple abortions and discuss all their abortions and contraceptive choices with these people.

An accidental pregnancy isn't necessarily an unwanted pregnancy. Plenty of people are happy to keep a pregnancy even if it's not exactly the right situation or the right time, so not sure what your point is.

My point is women accidently get pregnant all the time. Even with unwanted pregnancies some will chose not to terminate but nobody is likely to go about telling people that after they give birth are they? People also don't go about telling any randomer about their abortions (unless they are pro life apparently).

So yes in 30+ years of sexual activity and being fertile its very reasonable to assume that unwanted pregnancies happen, and its not unusual for it to happen more than once.

How come, in these discussions, it's always people with already some sort of objection to abortion (ranging from the virulently opposed to the merely uncomfortable) who hoards of women are apparently coming to to confide that they don't bother to use contraception, or that they had an abortion because they had two weeks in Marbella booked for around the time of the due date?