to think "no woman aborts a baby lightly" is untrue and unhelpful?

[ZoeCM]

I've noticed this phrase being used a lot following the news about Texas. I'm pro-choice, and I don't think it helps our cause.

There are women who have abortions lightly. It's not a myth started by the Daily Mail. I don't even think it's necessarily even that rare.

There are women who actively want a baby in the near future, are in stable relationships, aren't even using contraception, but still decide to abort because the timing isn't 100% perfect: they don't want to cancel their holiday abroad, or give birth until the extension on their house is finished. Trust me, it happens. Does anyone really think those women agonised over whether the holiday/extension was more important than the baby, before painfully including that abortion was the only option? Of course not. And that's fine. Women shouldn't have to ask if their reasons for aborting are "good enough".

Then there are the women who are on their fifth or sixth abortion - workers at abortion clinics will confirm that this does happen. It seems unlikely that those women agonised over their decisions either, because presumably they would have put some long-term contraception in place to stop it happening again. I expect most of them come from pretty traumatic backgrounds, but that doesn't mean their decision to abort isn't made perfectly casually.

This phrase is a gift for pro-lifers, because it's so easily disproved: many of them will have stories about women they know who've had abortions without a second thought. A better argument would simply be that it doesn't matter why a woman wants an abortion: she should be allowed one because it's her body and her choice.

@ViciousJackdaw

ideally people wouldn't repeatedly be in the position of having yet another abortion

Definitely. Thing is, nobody seems interested in the reasons why contraception hasn't been used or has failed. Nobody seems to GAF about the woman concerned. All they see is OMG ICKLE WICKLE BAYBEEEEE!!!

Abortion rates will not drop until the focus is switched from the unborn to the needs of women.

Yep. They all seem focused on preventing abortion and then vanishing Where's the financial, emotional, physical support after they've persuaded a woman not to abort?

I was friends briefly with a woman who used abortion as her form of contraception. She would regularly get hammered and sleep with a lot of different guys without protection, and if she got pregnant she'd have an abortion. In hindsight she was an alcoholic and quite damaged, at the time in my early 20s I thought she was just good fun to go out with.

I'm referring only to people who have multiple abortions because they keep 'accidentally' getting pregnant.

And im saying you don't know their reason and no woman has to justify her choice as to what happens to her body to forced birthers

Let's not pretend they're all vulnerable victims in abusive relationships or so unlucky that their contraception keeps failing time and time again
These women you speak of, these careless sluts who pop down to BPAS three times a year, do you not think we should make the effort to understand their behaviour? So we know what it is they need in order to successfully use contraception? So they don't get pregnant in the first place? So we can help women?

Or are we only interested in babies being born?

I feel like a lot of women who have terminations regret or agonise about their decision at a later date, and this should be included in the traumatic experience it is, I have had a termination and I did agonise about it and regret it to this day, but I equally know people who have had terminations and who have only regretted it years later, or considered it in the light of their choices and life later on. Any emotional and or trauma on the body is some sort of trauma and to deny this is well, denial

[quote Hoodie23]@viques.
Like I said I'm on about particular circumstances where people keep on getting pregnant and have abortions without thinking about maybe trying contraception instead.

That is literally it!. It's my opinion that they shouldn't keep doing it over and over.

I'm not saying they can't make the choice to keep doing that. It's up to them if they want to. But I don't think they should make the same choice over and over again.

I know of girls that have done this.

For other abortions. Unplanned pregnancy, medical, mental health, I understand all of them.[/quote]
You said ”24 weeks seems crazy to me” which is what I replied to.

I do not believe that there are many women who are having multiple 24 week abortions. I do believe there are a lot of “ I heard of a woman who” anecdotes on this thread, many of which I am taking with a pinch of salt.

Yes @Strangeways19, 'trauma on the body' is indeed 'some sort of trauma'. That's very insightful.

What is 'trauma' though? The American Psychological Association says 'Trauma is an emotional response to a terrible event'.

Abortion, therefore, is not always traumatic. Of course it is vitally important to recognise that it is traumatic to some. Not to all though. The idea that abortion is traumatic can only ever be subjective.

I apologise, that should read 'The idea that all abortion is traumatic...'

@Strangeways19

I feel like a lot of women who have terminations regret or agonise about their decision at a later date, and this should be included in the traumatic experience it is, I have had a termination and I did agonise about it and regret it to this day, but I equally know people who have had terminations and who have only regretted it years later, or considered it in the light of their choices and life later on. Any emotional and or trauma on the body is some sort of trauma and to deny this is well, denial

I’m 7 years on from mine and the only thing I ever think about it is “thank fuck I don’t have a 7 year old”. I can’t see my feelings changing about it in another 7 or even 70 years

@ViciousJackdaw

Let's not pretend they're all vulnerable victims in abusive relationships or so unlucky that their contraception keeps failing time and time again These women you speak of, these careless sluts who pop down to BPAS three times a year, do you not think we should make the effort to understand their behaviour? So we know what it is they need in order to successfully use contraception? So they don't get pregnant in the first place? So we can help women?

Or are we only interested in babies being born?

I think you're misunderstanding their point. PP doesn't come from a forced birthed perspective, I don't think a child should be born in that kind of scenario. Who would?

The point is, there should be some effort at prevention. Abortion shouldn't be restricted to X number, and both shouldn't be forced. But why keep going through that? Just stop it (conception) before or happens, you know?

Before anyone says, yes, I totally get it. I was in a situation where I had to make a choice because I wasn't on contraception (albeit no fault of my own, through young age and lack of knowledge, religious background etc.). Most people are only bothered by actual refusal to take precautions of any kind, rather than a single slip up and getting yourself sorted after

@EdgeOfACoin

Some people are very uncomfortable with the thought of terminating a human life. I am one of them. I take an equally dim view of men who have sex with women and then try to pressure them into having an abortion.

I also think that in the modern world, with the various contraception options open to us, there is little excuse for getting pregnant accidentally.

Do I think abortion should be illegal? No. Do I think abortion should not be trivialised, that the termination of a human life is more significant than ending a toothache and that abortion is not just another form of contraception? Yes.

You can accuse my attitudes of coming from the 1950s if you wish, but oh well. This is a matter of conscience for me. It is possible to understand the reasons for needing legal abortion while still holding a negative view of the process.

And once again, for the people at the back, I do believe abortion needs to be legal to an extent.

But while I believe many women agonise over their decisions, there are certainly those who do not.

This

@ViciousJackdaw

Let's not pretend they're all vulnerable victims in abusive relationships or so unlucky that their contraception keeps failing time and time again These women you speak of, these careless sluts who pop down to BPAS three times a year, do you not think we should make the effort to understand their behaviour? So we know what it is they need in order to successfully use contraception? So they don't get pregnant in the first place? So we can help women?

Or are we only interested in babies being born?

Never called them careless sluts nor said a baby should be born.

You're not very good at logical argument, are you?

People who need to resort to hyperbole and hysterics usually don't have a solid point to make.

I don't think I am misunderstanding though. If there really are women who have several abortions purely on the basis that they are not using contraception, doesn't it make sense to find out why this happens? That way, we can try and reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies in the first place. Which obviously reduces the need for abortion. It seems far more productive than just sitting there judging them. That doesn't help anyone.

@MorrisZapp

I agree. The media presents abortion as an agonising, upsetting choice that women only turn to in desperation.

I had an unplanned pregnancy in my twenties, didn't even think twice. Phoned the doctor, got it all arranged then went in and had it. Took one day off work.

I had not one agonising moment and nor did I think long and hard over my decision, the same way that if you have toothache you don't think long and hard about ringing the dentist.

I'd rather not have had to have my termination, but it had no mental or physical impact on me at all.

If I had gotten pregnant while at uni, I would have had an abortion no questions asked. Told my friends that too. It would have been a stupid time to have a child, I could barely support myself, why bring a baby into that? It would have been chaos.

@ViciousJackdaw

I don't think I am misunderstanding though. If there really are women who have several abortions purely on the basis that they are not using contraception, doesn't it make sense to find out why this happens? That way, we can try and reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies in the first place. Which obviously reduces the need for abortion. It seems far more productive than just sitting there judging them. That doesn't help anyone.

I've asked on this thread and nobody has answered.

I've known people in real life who simply couldn't be arsed. They didn't see why they should have to miss out on a one night stand if they didn't have a condom, or double up on contraception if they were on antibiotics. What can you do with that?

What can you do with that? not judge them for a start. Then work to find out why they're engaging in risky behaviour

@HerRoyalRisesAgain

What can you do with that? not judge them for a start. Then work to find out why they're engaging in risky behaviour

Why? What do you can work out?

What do you can work out? eh?

There is a reason behind every behaviour. Why is someone so desperate for sex that they are prepared to take that risk with a ONS? Are they lonely as hell? Self esteem down the toilet? In the throes of mania? Why doesn't someone fully understand the implications of antibiotics and the pill? Did the GP not explain properly? Do they have the mental capacity to fully understand? Do they need the appropriate info in 'Plain English'?

Its genuinely amazing to me how many pro lifers always know multiple women having abortion after abortion just because they don't want to use condoms, or who have several late term abortions, or who keep having abortions because it doesn't fit in with their holiday plans.

Where do all these very judgemental prolifers meet these women, let alone get friendly enough to be told the personal details of their fertility?

Pretty amazing reading through this how many times the view 'it's my body I can do what I want and have as many abortions as I want....nobody else's business etc etc'

But it is our business. It's our NHS being brought to its knees by avoidable procedures. If an alcoholic wrecks their liver and gets a liver transplant, then continues to drink should they have transplant after transplant? We are forced to wear seatbelts while driving, even though we could claim it as our right to be splattered through our own windscreen. We can't abuse our body with drugs as 'our right'. Cigarettes are priced out of our reach increasingly, to avoid us damaging our bodies - we really haven't got the control over our bodies the way some people think. Laws legislate against it.

Contraception is widely and freely available. Permanent procedures to stop pregnancy altogether are available. Avoiding unwanted pregnancy is taking personal responsibility. Regular abortion is not taking personal responsibility

It's a diversion to cite 'young girls' or 'rape victims' as the people seeking abortion (the reality is that rape victims are always offered the morning after pill following medical investigation). It's more mature women, who should know best how to avoid unwanted pregnancy, that are the concern.

The biggest increase in abortions is amongst the 30-34 age group. 81% of abortions are for single women. 77% of abortions are carried out on white women. 99% are NHS abortions.

Totally agree OP.

I had a termination and it was an easy, immediate decision to make. Literally the first thing I did after testing positive was phone the GP to make an appointment. I wouldn't say I took it lightly as such though, I knew it was a serious decision, just not one I needed to agonise over.
I also never experienced any upset or regret afterwards. I know it was the right decision.

The biggest increase in abortions is amongst the 30-34 age group
Then it would make good sense to find out why this is. There will be a damn sight more to it than 'woman can't be arsed with condoms'.

It's our NHS being brought to its knees by avoidable procedures
Childbirth is an avoidable procedure too. Each standard birth costs the NHS about 3-4k. An abortion costs in the region of £800

Then it would make good sense to find out why this is
Plenty of research available on that,
Childbirth costs, yes, but something people want. Abortion is about what they don’t want - and in the majority of cases could have prevented getting to that position.

In 2019, 40% of women undergoing abortions had had one or more previous abortions