to think "no woman aborts a baby lightly" is untrue and unhelpful?

[ZoeCM]

I've noticed this phrase being used a lot following the news about Texas. I'm pro-choice, and I don't think it helps our cause.

There are women who have abortions lightly. It's not a myth started by the Daily Mail. I don't even think it's necessarily even that rare.

There are women who actively want a baby in the near future, are in stable relationships, aren't even using contraception, but still decide to abort because the timing isn't 100% perfect: they don't want to cancel their holiday abroad, or give birth until the extension on their house is finished. Trust me, it happens. Does anyone really think those women agonised over whether the holiday/extension was more important than the baby, before painfully including that abortion was the only option? Of course not. And that's fine. Women shouldn't have to ask if their reasons for aborting are "good enough".

Then there are the women who are on their fifth or sixth abortion - workers at abortion clinics will confirm that this does happen. It seems unlikely that those women agonised over their decisions either, because presumably they would have put some long-term contraception in place to stop it happening again. I expect most of them come from pretty traumatic backgrounds, but that doesn't mean their decision to abort isn't made perfectly casually.

This phrase is a gift for pro-lifers, because it's so easily disproved: many of them will have stories about women they know who've had abortions without a second thought. A better argument would simply be that it doesn't matter why a woman wants an abortion: she should be allowed one because it's her body and her choice.

Im sure the unwanted baby you want them to have would be a much greater strain on the NHS even just through prenatal care. Medical abortion is extremely cheap. Surgical abortion more expensive but obviously a lot cheaper than a whole person's lifetime care.

Stop being naive. There will always be unwanted pregnancies, and making out abortion is something irresponsible or immoral helps no one, except people who want to feel good about themselves for being moral or superior.

@HerRoyalRisesAgain

We have free contraception in this country. Is it really so hard to take it?

Tell you what, you tell rape victims they should have been on contraception, just in case. Or women whose partners became violent once they fell pregnant, or women whose pregnancy isn't viable and they're having to carry a dead baby around because you don't like the idea of abortion.

You're doing a lot of heavy lifting on this thread, @HerRoyalRisesAgain, and thank you for that - but you know what, you shouldn't have to and always remember the saying that you can't negotiate with terrorists.

Reading this thread, a lot of pro choice arguments are really bad, and actually do women a disservice because they are just so disingenuous

-A fetus is not always a clump of cells. Depending on the gestation, a fetus can be a very simple organism, or a 20-42 week unborn baby, who would rightly be called a baby of born at that time

-It is perfectly logically compatible to support the death penalty for murderers who committed evil acts, and to not support abortion.

-People who are anti abortion aren't going to 'mind their own' because to them, a life is being ended.

The OP is exactly right. The dancing around things like saying 'no woman takes abortion lightly' - well... that's not true. We shouldn't have to bend the truth or obtuse to prove a point.

@viques.
Like I said I'm on about particular circumstances where people keep on getting pregnant and have abortions without thinking about maybe trying contraception instead.

That is literally it!. It's my opinion that they shouldn't keep doing it over and over.

I'm not saying they can't make the choice to keep doing that. It's up to them if they want to. But I don't think they should make the same choice over and over again.

I know of girls that have done this.

For other abortions. Unplanned pregnancy, medical, mental health, I understand all of them.

@HerRoyalRisesAgain

We have free contraception in this country. Is it really so hard to take it?

Tell you what, you tell rape victims they should have been on contraception, just in case. Or women whose partners became violent once they fell pregnant, or women whose pregnancy isn't viable and they're having to carry a dead baby around because you don't like the idea of abortion.

Absolutely agree with you. Pregnancies can happen even when people use contraceptioion correctly.

Surgical abortions aren't performed routinely in the UK after about 13 weeks. The vast, vast majority of terminations happen before 13 weeks.

Termination of pregnancy post 12 weeks or so are often termed 'Compassionate Induction of labour' and are usually for medical reasons to do with fetal anomalies.

Late termination, after about 16 weeks, in my personal experience and especially after 20 weeks, are always called compassionate induction. These babies are wanted, loved, often have been planned and prayed for. These women have agonised over their choice. It is the worst decision you can ever have to make.

This is not the same (emotionally or physically) as termination for social reasons when a woman doesn't want to continue with a pregnancy. Which should never be something to be ashamed of, or agonised over. Women gets pregnant, women doesn't want to continue pregnancy, women obtains termination. It should always be that simple. Abortion is healthcare.

@Unsure1983

What business is of mine? We are on site made to literally have discussions.

What business is it of yours to have an opinion on the topic?

I knew someone who got an abortion because she didn't have a ring on her finger or the big house. Within a year she had those things and was pregnant again. Some women are shockingly self absorbed and selfish

so you're saying she didn't want to bring a child into an insecure environment? In what world is that selfish?She waited until she was sure she could provide a stable upbringing for a child. It was a responsible choice if anything. I often see women on here called selfish for having children they can't afford/bringing extra kids into unstable relationships. Are you ok with those women or are they selfish too? You can't have it both ways so which is it?!

You'd just prefer women to be perfect and lucky at all times and never find themselves in undesirable circumstances I imagine? Life is messy and there always was and always will be unwanted pregnancies. You either support a woman's choice to deal with those situations in a manner that works best for her or you're an misogynist/not very bright/an arsehole - I support your choice to select whatever term suits you best!

I have the coil fitted. I have taken steps to stop an unwanted pregnancy.

BUT. If I got pregnant, I would feel it akin to torture to continue with a pregnancy in my 40s, when I have 3 kids already, and I had chronic HG and SPD to the point I thought I would have to terminate, and the last pregnancy I developed preeclampsia.

I would also find it hard to abort, and worry about my decision. Essentially I would have to take that choice though.

My son is very pro-life and it's really hard to convince him otherwise. He is very young, and when I was young, I also thought abortion was murder (church background). I now know that it is so much more complex than that, and having experienced rape as well, and encountered many women's stories along the way, I am very much pro-choice, no matter what.

Ultimately, pro-lifers believe a life begins from conception, so it will always be murder to them. In the same way that trans activists truly believe transwomen are actual women, and should have access to female only spaces etc, you can never argue with them.

It is once again another area to bash women. Never men.

I can understand someone having a view that life begins when they say, but I can never accept that a baby that is a result of rape or incest is not the exception. I guess once they have said murder is murder, they cannot then say, but murder in the event of rape is ok.

I wonder if mainly men are pro-life?

Im sure the unwanted baby you want them to have would be a much greater strain on the NHS even just through prenatal care. Medical abortion is extremely cheap. Surgical abortion more expensive but obviously a lot cheaper than a whole person's lifetime care.

Exactly. The cost argument doesn’t even come close to making sense.

Agreed and then there's the pro-lifers who support the death penalty. What on earth is that all about?

Misogyny. It’s all about misogyny.

@HerRoyalRisesAgain

We have free contraception in this country. Is it really so hard to take it?

Tell you what, you tell rape victims they should have been on contraception, just in case. Or women whose partners became violent once they fell pregnant, or women whose pregnancy isn't viable and they're having to carry a dead baby around because you don't like the idea of abortion.

I'm not saying that, am I?

I'm referring only to people who have multiple abortions because they keep 'accidentally' getting pregnant.

If you can do nothing else but attack a straw man, your argument must be weak.

@Recessed

I knew someone who got an abortion because she didn't have a ring on her finger or the big house. Within a year she had those things and was pregnant again. Some women are shockingly self absorbed and selfish

so you're saying she didn't want to bring a child into an insecure environment? In what world is that selfish?She waited until she was sure she could provide a stable upbringing for a child. It was a responsible choice if anything. I often see women on here called selfish for having children they can't afford/bringing extra kids into unstable relationships. Are you ok with those women or are they selfish too? You can't have it both ways so which is it?!

You'd just prefer women to be perfect and lucky at all times and never find themselves in undesirable circumstances I imagine? Life is messy and there always was and always will be unwanted pregnancies. You either support a woman's choice to deal with those situations in a manner that works best for her or you're an misogynist/not very bright/an arsehole - I support your choice to select whatever term suits you best!

You go on as if getting pregnant is so unavoidable. I'm 36 years old and have never got pregnant in my life. And I've been unluckier than most in that I'm unable to take the pill and most other hormonal contraception and have much more work to do regarding working around fertile times and relying on barrier contraception.

It's not about being perfect, it's about acknowledging that ideally people wouldn't repeatedly be in the position of having yet another abortion.

I know a woman who lived in a shoe.

And what??

@YouMeandtheSpew

Im sure the unwanted baby you want them to have would be a much greater strain on the NHS even just through prenatal care. Medical abortion is extremely cheap. Surgical abortion more expensive but obviously a lot cheaper than a whole person's lifetime care.

Exactly. The cost argument doesn’t even come close to making sense.

Except it's not 'have an abortion' vs 'have a baby', is it?

It's 'have an abortion' vs 'take the pill' or 'have an abortion' vs 'use a condom'.

Do try to keep up.

What confuses me on this topic is that people seem to fail in remembering that without the mother as a host the baby would not exist or continue to exist before 26 weeks. Yet somehow this foetus has more rights than the mother.

It's not about being perfect, it's about acknowledging that ideally people wouldn't repeatedly be in the position of having yet another abortion.

Yes "ideally" they wouldn't but as I said life is not and never will be ideal for all. The poster I was replying to was speaking about a woman who had one termination - so it wasn't about multiple abortions. She considered the woman selfish for having one abortion when continuing that pregnancy could have left her and that potential child in a very vulnerable situation.

@Rozziie except it isn't? I got pregnant on the pill which was taken perfectly and had always worked for me before. And the one time I got pregnant he also withdrew way before so.. My contraception failed
Condoms break, pills fail, nothing is 100% except not having sex

I had an abortion and it was the right decision. I more felt disappointed in myself for getting pregnant than having an abortion. It wasn't an agonising decision it was the only and right decision for me.

Absolutely no regrets.

@YouMeandtheSpew

Agreed and then there's the pro-lifers who support the death penalty. What on earth is that all about?

Misogyny. It’s all about misogyny.

Innocent life being preserved vs punishment for a grave sin. Rape and murder are regarded as some of the worst crimes. Truly, it's not hard to comprehend, whether you agree or not.

Pro life is not about being pro every life. And remember, not all pro lifers will be Christian and believe I the sanctity of life. They may only be "pro innocent life".

ideally people wouldn't repeatedly be in the position of having yet another abortion

Definitely. Thing is, nobody seems interested in the reasons why contraception hasn't been used or has failed. Nobody seems to GAF about the woman concerned. All they see is OMG ICKLE WICKLE BAYBEEEEE!!!

Abortion rates will not drop until the focus is switched from the unborn to the needs of women.

@Chocoholic9 Don't start on the morning after pill, for fuck's sake, it's a form of contraception not an abortifacient you absolute plum. The morning after pill can only prevent fertilisation, it can't end a pregnancy so no you didn't flush anything out. It's a shame all your contemplation didn't include a bit of actual fucking education.

Hark at all the (presumably just as evil and amoral and irresponsible at the time) abortion havers on here who are all super quick to judge other women who they don't feel are performing shame enough for them! Get your own glass house in order before you start chucking those stones around yeah!

[quote NotMyCat]@Rozziie except it isn't? I got pregnant on the pill which was taken perfectly and had always worked for me before. And the one time I got pregnant he also withdrew way before so.. My contraception failed
Condoms break, pills fail, nothing is 100% except not having sex[/quote]
Right, yes, that's an unlucky accident. But the people who have that happen three, four, five times? At what point is it just carelessness?

@ViciousJackdaw

ideally people wouldn't repeatedly be in the position of having yet another abortion

Definitely. Thing is, nobody seems interested in the reasons why contraception hasn't been used or has failed. Nobody seems to GAF about the woman concerned. All they see is OMG ICKLE WICKLE BAYBEEEEE!!!

Abortion rates will not drop until the focus is switched from the unborn to the needs of women.

Plenty of the women concerned don't seem to GAF themselves. Let's not pretend they're all vulnerable victims in abusive relationships or so unlucky that their contraception keeps failing time and time again.

I'm basically agreeing with the OP here - I think a lot of women DO make the decision lightly, and some of them have posted here.

It's 'have an abortion' vs 'take the pill' or 'have an abortion' vs 'use a condom'.

Not for everyone.

I lived in a refuge for a time, the majority of women there were at various stages of pregnancy, including me.

A huge percentage of domestic abuse starts in pregnancy, when the abuser thinks their victim has no choice but to stay.

Even the women who planned their pregnancies made some tough choices because they didn't want themselves, or their potential child to be subject to abuse forever.

I was a vulnerable teenager myself when I was taken advantage of by a much older man who kept me pregnant for years pretty much through coercive control.

Taking a pill or using a condom isn't always an option for everyone.