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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think "no woman aborts a baby lightly" is untrue and unhelpful?

548 replies

ZoeCM · 11/09/2021 15:32

I've noticed this phrase being used a lot following the news about Texas. I'm pro-choice, and I don't think it helps our cause.

There are women who have abortions lightly. It's not a myth started by the Daily Mail. I don't even think it's necessarily even that rare.

There are women who actively want a baby in the near future, are in stable relationships, aren't even using contraception, but still decide to abort because the timing isn't 100% perfect: they don't want to cancel their holiday abroad, or give birth until the extension on their house is finished. Trust me, it happens. Does anyone really think those women agonised over whether the holiday/extension was more important than the baby, before painfully including that abortion was the only option? Of course not. And that's fine. Women shouldn't have to ask if their reasons for aborting are "good enough".

Then there are the women who are on their fifth or sixth abortion - workers at abortion clinics will confirm that this does happen. It seems unlikely that those women agonised over their decisions either, because presumably they would have put some long-term contraception in place to stop it happening again. I expect most of them come from pretty traumatic backgrounds, but that doesn't mean their decision to abort isn't made perfectly casually.

This phrase is a gift for pro-lifers, because it's so easily disproved: many of them will have stories about women they know who've had abortions without a second thought. A better argument would simply be that it doesn't matter why a woman wants an abortion: she should be allowed one because it's her body and her choice.

OP posts:
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TheGirlCat · 11/09/2021 19:56

If an anti-choicer can't see the difference between a 12 week embryo that has no organs, no brainstem and no sentience, and a born detached baby with sentience and all fully developed organs in place, then something went very wrong with their science lessons somewhere. So that argument doesn't wash at all.

TheGirlCat · 11/09/2021 19:58

Oops that last post was to Silverswirl

YouMeandtheSpew · 11/09/2021 20:01

I knew someone who got an abortion because she didn't have a ring on her finger or the big house. Within a year she had those things and was pregnant again. Some women are shockingly self absorbed and selfish

Woman in "has child when she's ready" shocker.

Ha, yes. And as for the sheer selfishness of wanting the security of marriage and a child-suitable property before having a child…

ViciousJackdaw · 11/09/2021 20:03

@TheGirlCat

If an anti-choicer can't see the difference between a 12 week embryo that has no organs, no brainstem and no sentience, and a born detached baby with sentience and all fully developed organs in place, then something went very wrong with their science lessons somewhere. So that argument doesn't wash at all.
Agreed and then there's the pro-lifers who support the death penalty. What on earth is that all about?
Unsure1983 · 11/09/2021 20:12

It is not a baby it is a clump of cells. If a woman doesnt want a child she doesnt have to have it and it is better she doesnt. Every woman has her own reasons. End of story.

JemimaM00n · 11/09/2021 20:16

I also have concerns at the cross over between the pro-lifers and the anti-mask/ anti-vaxxers. Though not 100%, it does seem to be significant. They don't seem to understand the irony of wanting the freedom to make choices about their own bodies, whilst denying women the right to do the same.

Unsure1983 · 11/09/2021 20:17

Women go through enough hardship as it is. For their choice to have a child (who in all likelihood she will be 80%+ responsible for) to be policed is fucking disgusting, barbaric and just more oppression and moralising on what a woman 'should' be. Our judgment is being questioned, our morality is being questioned, by men usually, or the patriarchy in general. How dare we have control over our reproductive functions! How dare we not feel agonising guilt for making decisions in our own best interests!

Unsure1983 · 11/09/2021 20:18

@JemimaM00n in those groups men are usually above women.

Unsure1983 · 11/09/2021 20:20

Access to abortion is good for society. I think it was in Freakonomics where it showed crime rates went down in NYC 20 years after abortion was allowed.

JemimaM00n · 11/09/2021 20:20

[quote Unsure1983]@JemimaM00n in those groups men are usually above women.[/quote]
True - but it's worrying how many women fall into the category too.

DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult · 11/09/2021 20:25

Bloody hell. Talk about throw enough mud at a wall and hope it will stick.

Not one bit of what I said there was wrong.

To not have ever had to consider an abortion, or even understand why others would is definitely privileged.

Being 'pro life' is absolutely a position of moral superiority without actually having to do anything other than judge other peoples choices.

Look at the people on here berating women who choose abortion because they aren't acting sufficiently upset enough, or saying that abortion is OK as long as the woman behaves appropriatly afterwards.

Clearly it isn't about 'saving babies' for some people, rather controlling women.

Whatever side of the argument you are on, this has got to be the most overgeneralised irrational argument I've heard in a long time.

It absolutely isn't. I have seen it plenty myself, a lot of these families who are adamantly pro life at all costs suddenly aren't concerned about that life at all if that child turns out to be gay or something else considered a sin. It happens daily, I personally know people who's parents are pro life activists and spend their days protesting, and they kicked their own kids for their sexuality.

Pro life people, ime, are only pro life if it doesn't encroach on them at all, they get the morality of 'saving babies' but don't care about any of the aftermath of their stance.

Unsure1983 · 11/09/2021 20:28

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

Clearly it isn't about 'saving babies' for some people, rather controlling women.
Got it in one.

Blossomtoes · 11/09/2021 20:29

To not have ever had to consider an abortion, or even understand why others would is definitely privileged

I’d say lucky, not privileged. I’ve never had to consider it. I can’t see what’s privileged about that.

Rozziie · 11/09/2021 20:31

@Clocktopus

I knew someone who got an abortion because she didn't have a ring on her finger or the big house. Within a year she had those things and was pregnant again. Some women are shockingly self absorbed and selfish

I got pregnant when DC1 was 6mo. Totally the wrong time as we were living in a small flat and in the middle of looking for a house, I had plans to return to work and was fairly career minded so wanted to show that I hadn't lost my edge after being on maternity leave and returning to work pregnant would have messed that up, and I didn't want to juggle pregnancy with a 6mo or the newborn stage with a 15mo. That pregnancy didn't continue but I got pregnant again nine months later and things were much better by that point - we'd found a house and moved into it, I was back at work, DC1 was that little bit older, and we were much more settled so we had DC2.

That's how choice works, you get to choose to end the pregnancy and you get to choose to continue the pregnancy, I'm pro every woman having that choice. Don't believe in abortion? Don't want an abortion? Want to continue your pregnancy? Brilliant, you should carry on and I will support your right do so, no one should pressure you into doing otherwise. Don't want to be pregnant? Want an abortion? That's absolutely fine, you should have free and fast access to services that can help you with this and I will support your right to use them without judgement or fear.

I'm done having children now but if I did find myself accidentally pregnant I already know I wouldn't continue the pregnancy. I don't want nine months of HG again, I don't want the caesarean recovery again, I don't want the baby or toddler stage again, our house is full, my hands are full, I owe my existing children more than I owe a potential child.

You talk as if contraception hasn't been invented and pregnancy is inevitable. An accidental pregnancy 6 months after having one baby, then another accidental pregnancy 9 month after that? What if you hadn't happened to have found a suitable house and work wasn't going just as planned...would you have just aborted that one as well?

Why weren't you on reliable contraception and doubling up, if you really didn't want a child? I consider myself pro choice but I do not understand even a little bit how some women can be so cavalier and so casual about it.

BiBabbles · 11/09/2021 20:33

Absolutes in what people feel or do are rarely helpful. This includes the remark about women on their 5th or 6th abortion - some of those women will be involved in abusive relationships with reproductive coercion. It happens.

Most I know would only use the "no woman aborts a baby lightly..." when discussing the very rare late term abortions though, and I think that's likely more true. At 7 months gone, you're not aborting for a trip.

If abortion was "trivialized" as many are saying, in at least the systems of power stopped caring & passing laws like this and allowed it be a discussion between the woman or girl pregnant and her medical professional without any of this over their heads, then maybe more energy could be put towards other things. Individuals could still take it as seriously as they wanted to do so.

Maybe if pregnancy and childbirth weren't trivialized, if the maternal deaths and lifelong health issues weren't discussing as dismissively as they are, then maybe pregnancy could be seen as more serious than abortion. I'll never understand why someone would want another person to take the riskier path if they didn't choose it.

Yes, some aren't careful and take aborting lightly, but I don't get how making it harder or more shameful would help anything, but then I've been called a lot worse than evil and psychologically damaged (I don't view myself as good and yeah, I'm probably damaged mentally having a trauma disorder).

why isn't the conversation focussed on preventing more pregnancies in the first place and by having men take greater responsibility for doing so?

Because it's not about reducing abortion to the groups this law is marketed to as a great victory. It's about the law say it's wrong, it's getting the legal system to line up with their doctrine. That's what they've been pushed to want for years.

Medical practitioners have to be satisfied that the medical procedure is in the patient’s best interest. That is the case for all medical procedures. What is the argument for making an exception in the case of termination of pregnancy?

Abortion has fewer risks than continuing a pregnancy until you're at a point where someone pretty much has to give birth anyway.

And many medical procedures can be had on demand if one has the funds for it.

Would it be upsetting or atleast make you uncomfortable if someone murdered some one and spoke so casually about it?

My mother tried to kill me and afterwards, when she was out on bail, my very Catholic grandfather joked that she was grounded (we lived in my maternal grandparents' house). He never said another word to or around me about the topic, though he did discuss how he prayed to the Lord about us reconciling & the importance of family.

Dozens of Evangelical church members were aware of her intoxicated state and her thinking about how it was okay for me to die now that I was baptised as she was forcing me into the car. Not a single one of them tried to stop her. They smiled and waved me off - honour thy mother, you know.

It was their doctrines that meant rather than my addict mother getting an abortion and rehab the first time she was pregnant (she openly admitted she spent her pill money on drugs), she got married. It solved nothing and created more risk.

You wouldn't try to stop someone who is trying to commit suicide then because their body their choice?

Suicide used to be illegal too, but we've moved on from that which is why people can't "commit" suicide anymore which infers a crime - one commits murder, one can die by suicide. Lots of people support assisted suicide to some degree. I'm in the "not for me, but I can see the arguments on the potential benefits vs the risks of coercion that are hard to balance legally" camp.

I've had suicidal ideation since early childhood, and was supported by professionals in that area -- not politicians making laws or preachers telling me how sinful it is (while also saying disobeying my mother was a sin which would then make me wonder which was worse...I was a terrible unfeeling not really human to her either way, but I liked clarity).

I know a few pro-lifers who do put in a lot of effort to support women so those who would abort on economic grounds have other options and put money towards research into medical issues related to pregnancies, but I don't think their values should be part of law that could lead to more kids like I was - unwanted punching bags - just as I don't want those who go to Dignitas to have to go alone to prevent their loved ones being charged with a crime even though that would never be an option I'm comfortable with for myself.

Hoodie23 · 11/09/2021 20:33

@HerRoyalRisesAgain

Easily be avoided?. What can easily be avoided is not making the choice to keep on getting pregnant and keep on getting abortions.

Like I said I have had one. I am not against abortions.

I'm not saying they should be forced into giving birth. I'm not saying anyone should have the right to say right no more abortions now. Because it is their choice. I just think it's wrong they would keep on putting themselves in the position.

There are people that find out they are pregnant and decide on abortion after 12 weeks. Which I do understand. But 24 weeks just seems crazy to me. It is a life by that point.

HerRoyalRisesAgain · 11/09/2021 20:49

What can easily be avoided is not making the choice to keep on getting pregnant and keep on getting abortions
You can't know their circumstances so you can't say that.

Unsure1983 · 11/09/2021 20:52

What can easily be avoided is not making the choice to keep on getting pregnant and keep on getting abortions

Everyone's circumstances are different. And what business is it of yours? Do you think there should be a limit on how many abortions you can have? Would you like women to give birth to babies they dont want?

Rozziie · 11/09/2021 20:53

@Unsure1983

What can easily be avoided is not making the choice to keep on getting pregnant and keep on getting abortions

Everyone's circumstances are different. And what business is it of yours? Do you think there should be a limit on how many abortions you can have? Would you like women to give birth to babies they dont want?

Is it really too much to expect a tiny bit of personal responsibility?
viques · 11/09/2021 20:54

[quote Hoodie23]@HerRoyalRisesAgain

Easily be avoided?. What can easily be avoided is not making the choice to keep on getting pregnant and keep on getting abortions.

Like I said I have had one. I am not against abortions.

I'm not saying they should be forced into giving birth. I'm not saying anyone should have the right to say right no more abortions now. Because it is their choice. I just think it's wrong they would keep on putting themselves in the position.

There are people that find out they are pregnant and decide on abortion after 12 weeks. Which I do understand. But 24 weeks just seems crazy to me. It is a life by that point.[/quote]
In 2020 in the UK there were about 240 24 week or post 24 week abortions. About 0.01 of the total. The reasons for late abortions are either to protect the mothers health, or because the foetus is not viable because of chromosomal or developmental problems.

I think those 240 or so women need sympathy not vilification.

I wonder what you would do, carry your dying child for perhaps another 16 weeks, explaining to your existing children that the baby is dying, while having to circumvent the well meaning but painful comments of people about your pregnancy..

Silverswirl · 11/09/2021 20:56

@TheGirlCat

If an anti-choicer can't see the difference between a 12 week embryo that has no organs, no brainstem and no sentience, and a born detached baby with sentience and all fully developed organs in place, then something went very wrong with their science lessons somewhere. So that argument doesn't wash at all.
I’m not sure where you’ve got your facts from but by the end of the 3rd month the baby is FULLY FORMED. All organs are present, just not all have begun working yet.
Unsure1983 · 11/09/2021 20:56

@Rozziie is getting an abortion not taking personal responsibility?

HerRoyalRisesAgain · 11/09/2021 20:58

Is it really too much to expect a tiny bit of personal responsibility

Getting an abortion is taking responsibility.

Rozziie · 11/09/2021 21:01

[quote Unsure1983]@Rozziie is getting an abortion not taking personal responsibility?[/quote]
No, it's a strain on the NHS and a preventable issue in many cases.

We have free contraception in this country. Is it really so hard to take it?

HerRoyalRisesAgain · 11/09/2021 21:03

We have free contraception in this country. Is it really so hard to take it?

Tell you what, you tell rape victims they should have been on contraception, just in case. Or women whose partners became violent once they fell pregnant, or women whose pregnancy isn't viable and they're having to carry a dead baby around because you don't like the idea of abortion.