to think "no woman aborts a baby lightly" is untrue and unhelpful?

[ZoeCM]

I've noticed this phrase being used a lot following the news about Texas. I'm pro-choice, and I don't think it helps our cause.

There are women who have abortions lightly. It's not a myth started by the Daily Mail. I don't even think it's necessarily even that rare.

There are women who actively want a baby in the near future, are in stable relationships, aren't even using contraception, but still decide to abort because the timing isn't 100% perfect: they don't want to cancel their holiday abroad, or give birth until the extension on their house is finished. Trust me, it happens. Does anyone really think those women agonised over whether the holiday/extension was more important than the baby, before painfully including that abortion was the only option? Of course not. And that's fine. Women shouldn't have to ask if their reasons for aborting are "good enough".

Then there are the women who are on their fifth or sixth abortion - workers at abortion clinics will confirm that this does happen. It seems unlikely that those women agonised over their decisions either, because presumably they would have put some long-term contraception in place to stop it happening again. I expect most of them come from pretty traumatic backgrounds, but that doesn't mean their decision to abort isn't made perfectly casually.

This phrase is a gift for pro-lifers, because it's so easily disproved: many of them will have stories about women they know who've had abortions without a second thought. A better argument would simply be that it doesn't matter why a woman wants an abortion: she should be allowed one because it's her body and her choice.

@Hoodie23

I think if someone has one unplanned pregnancy and decide to abort that is fine, but for some girls making the same decision 5 or 6 times is what I don't agree with.

I went through it once and I would never ever want to go through it again and I would assume other women would feel the same way. There is definitely women out there that use abortions as a form of contraception.

And as for the 12 week mark, most women would know they were pregnant by then, obviously there is times when women don't know until they literally give birth. I don't think abortion at 24 weeks is the same. I'm sorry I just don't. If you gave birth to a baby at 24 weeks then they have a high chance of survival. That's the difference.

Why do you think women have abortions at or after 24 weeks? Could it be because many of the tests that determine viability can only be performed around that time. What would you say ,for example , to a woman who has just been told that her child’s head is not developing, that their brain is so compromised that the child is unlikely to ever draw breath independently? Or that the child has a genetic chromosomal abnormality that would leave the child in unbearable and unstoppable pain? Do you expect her to continue with that pregnancy for another 16 weeks ?

Very few abortions are performed at 24 weeks and above. In 2020 it was 0.01% of all abortions in the UK. About 240 in total.

I think those 240 odd women deserve our sympathy for their choices regarding either their own health or that of their child rather than your moral outrage and judgement.

I dont see why anyone cares how much someone else agonised or didnt agonise over a decision which is nothing to do with them. I really just cannot relate to being concerned over other peoples abortions or miscarriages or whatever. Humans arent an endangered species. A foetus is only a baby in the eye of the beholder

I agree. Claiming that every woman finds it traumatising is a stealth way of saying its wrong. The subtext is that the woman has done something so awful and against her natural instincts she is traumatised by it. I think it may also deter some women who want to make this choice but fear the psychological impact.

@FfrothiCoffi

You are misunderstanding her argument. She thinks abortion is morally wrong. She doesn't just mean it is wrong for her, she means it is wrong for everyone as her focus is the foetus/ unborn child. Just like someone who is against capital punishment, isn't just against it being applied to them, but to everyone

Not misunderstanding it at all. I just don’t think her beliefs should impact my choices. I don’t believe in God, so why does the fact that she does impact me? Or anyone else for that matter?

But MOST people think their beliefs SHOULD impact others choices, that's why they campaign for legislative and social change and vote and stuff..

Its quite an extremist position to argue that someone should not campaign for social change on matters of concern to them. Are you against that for all other areas, or just this one?

Surely taking any medical procedure lightly is not great? And if nothing else, it's a waste of expensive and publicly funded resources to use abortion as a method of contraception. I think both women AND men should be encouraged to think about whether they want a baby before a clinic is the only way to avoid it, and my personal opinion is that an "abortion is no big deal" attitude isn't helpful.

Its easy to say you don't know anyone who has had an abortion lightly because it's taboo. Women do not generally discuss it unless it's a medical termination. So whether it's done lightly by many is hard to say.

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

Being pro life is definitely a stance for the privileged. To be anti abortion you don't have to give up anything or do any self examination at all. All you have to do is shame people and in return you get self satisfaction and moral superiority.

Pro lifers don't care about women, or babies actually, because if those babies grow up to be gay or trans they are cast aside as well. All they care about is getting the moral high ground at the lowest cost to themselves.

Bloody hell. Talk about throw enough mud at a wall and hope it will stick.

It’s quite an extremist position to argue that someone should not campaign for social change on matters of concern to them. Are you against that for all other areas, or just this one?

I missed the bit where she was campaigning for social change, I thought she was just telling people online that abortion is murder because a god she happens to believe in may or may not have said so.

@IveGotASongThatllGetOnYNerves

One thing you have to praise pro life activists for is the way they take care of babies born as a result of their pressure. The money they give to the parents for 18 years, the way they are there for them, the way they ensure the children have good lives. It's not like they shout long and loud then once the baby is born they don't give a shit.

Oh, hang on...

I had a colleague who asked me to buy an advent candle for a pro-life charity. I refused as I think abortion needs to be legal. She did however tell me about all the work this charity does to support women who are pregnant and after they have the baby.
As someone who was very active in the animal rights movement, I constantly heard criticisms that we never did anything for people, just animals. This was utterly untrue, In all the years I was involved every single person I knew was employed in an area which helped people or volunteered for charities/ campaigns that helped people.

Given that experience, I can't help be cynical of these confident claims that no-one who is pro-life does sod all for mothers in poverty/ hardship etc.

@FfrothiCoffi

It’s quite an extremist position to argue that someone should not campaign for social change on matters of concern to them. Are you against that for all other areas, or just this one?

I missed the bit where she was campaigning for social change, I thought she was just telling people online that abortion is murder because a god she happens to believe in may or may not have said so.

I would have thought that if you believe something is murder then it is a very clear example of arguing for social change. Just like campaigning against the death penalty.

@vdbfamily

You're a fundamentalist, we all know what your type thinks of women.

Pro lifers don't care about women, or babies actually, because if those babies grow up to be gay or trans they are cast aside as well. All they care about is getting the moral high ground at the lowest cost to themselves

Whatever side of the argument you are on, this has got to be the most overgeneralised irrational argument I've heard in a long time.

@StoneofDestiny

Pro lifers don't care about women, or babies actually, because if those babies grow up to be gay or trans they are cast aside as well. All they care about is getting the moral high ground at the lowest cost to themselves

Whatever side of the argument you are on, this has got to be the most overgeneralised irrational argument I've heard in a long time.

I've seen some pro lifers say that once the babies born it's nothing to do with them etc

However although I don't agree with their opinion I have the up most respect for pro lifers who help pregnant and struggling mothers and babies.

’But it's as I say, disheartening and tiresome when nobody believes in you’

I’m sorry you experienced that.

I don’t think that young people - and it’s really the mothers who are impacted the most - can’t be good parents and carry on with their education and ambitions. I think that it’s a huge amount to take on and that there’s no shame in saying that they don’t want to be a parent then.

Haven't read all the thread so sorry if already stated but I think a more accurate description is "no woman actively wants an abortion".

For some women it's on a par with not particularly wanting to go to the dentist with toothache but it's necessary to get rid of your toothache. For others it's an agonising decision with long term effects. It's probably somewhere in between for most.

The abortion I had was not an agonising decision. It was the obvious choice due to a fatal foetal abnormality. What was traumatic for me was the ending of a wanted pregnancy. The fact it was an abortion rather than waiting for nature to take its course was irrelevant.

@Plastic01

I knew someone who got an abortion because she didn't have a ring on her finger or the big house. Within a year she had those things and was pregnant again. Some women are shockingly self absorbed and selfish

Woman in "has child when she's ready" shocker.

Lexie 365 Both me and my sister were adopted inthe 60s / early 70s and were adopted through the catholic church. My birth mother had puerperal psychosis after having me, and was in a psychiatric hospital for 3 months.

The catholic adoption society told my adoptive parents she had done a runnner.

I have no words for the rank hypocrisy and disgusting behaviour of the catholic church towards vulnerable new mothers in the 60's and beyond , and as has been recently been made clear the paedophile priests sheltered by them.

I agree with the OP and it’s extraordinary how many people even on the first page have misunderstood what she’s saying.

‘No woman has an abortion lightly’ is a stupid phrase because it isn’t true and doesn’t need to be true. I couldn’t give less of a shit why a woman has an abortion or how many times she has one. I don’t need her to be in emotional agony about having one in order for it to be ok.

It's not anybody's business what I choose to do with my body, or how I feel about it.

Yes, I agree with that.

What bothers me is that so many people who are anti-abortion run to these kinds of threads with the same pro-life lines - "murder", "a heartbeat/limbs/whatever from X weeks", "selfish", "self absorbed". (I'm talking about actual prolifers here, not those uncomfortable with abortion past a certain point - that's up to you, as long as you're not berating anyone else you have the right to feel however you want about it).

Their sincere wish is that everyone who falls pregnant stays that way - and I think that's an attitude that's deeply anti-women.

I am pro-choice because I want women to be able to decide for themselves. You can't call yourself a good person and then decide women have two fundamental choices: never have sex and hope you're never raped, or continue any pregnancy that may happen to them. How can you think that and be okay with that as the two choices you give women? Celibacy or forced birth?

The vast majority of late abortions ie post 24 weeks are done where the baby has catastrophic and unsurvivable deformities ,. eg organs outside the body, no brain, and the baby will survive the birth for hours at most and may suffer nothing but pain.

For the judgy

I've seen some pro lifers say that once the babies born it's nothing to do with them etc

Likewise, some pro abortion on demand advocates say that once babies are born it's nothing to do with them etc

I'm certain pro- life and pro- choice are found working in maternity units, adoption agencies and in homes for unsupported mothers.

Best not generalise.

I knew someone who got an abortion because she didn't have a ring on her finger or the big house. Within a year she had those things and was pregnant again. Some women are shockingly self absorbed and selfish

I got pregnant when DC1 was 6mo. Totally the wrong time as we were living in a small flat and in the middle of looking for a house, I had plans to return to work and was fairly career minded so wanted to show that I hadn't lost my edge after being on maternity leave and returning to work pregnant would have messed that up, and I didn't want to juggle pregnancy with a 6mo or the newborn stage with a 15mo. That pregnancy didn't continue but I got pregnant again nine months later and things were much better by that point - we'd found a house and moved into it, I was back at work, DC1 was that little bit older, and we were much more settled so we had DC2.

That's how choice works, you get to choose to end the pregnancy and you get to choose to continue the pregnancy, I'm pro every woman having that choice. Don't believe in abortion? Don't want an abortion? Want to continue your pregnancy? Brilliant, you should carry on and I will support your right do so, no one should pressure you into doing otherwise. Don't want to be pregnant? Want an abortion? That's absolutely fine, you should have free and fast access to services that can help you with this and I will support your right to use them without judgement or fear.

I'm done having children now but if I did find myself accidentally pregnant I already know I wouldn't continue the pregnancy. I don't want nine months of HG again, I don't want the caesarean recovery again, I don't want the baby or toddler stage again, our house is full, my hands are full, I owe my existing children more than I owe a potential child.

@Unicornish

I just find it odd the way that forced birthers think their own opinions and feeling are just so much more special and important than people who are pro choice.

You know what? Supporting women's rights to make decision about their own bodies, health and lives is a matter of conscience to me too.

Your views and opinions don't trump mine. So you do you. Don't have an abortion. And back the fuck out of everyone else's lives.

It's not difficult.

The thing is for many pro lifers, having an abortion is killing someone. That’s the bottom line. They believe that by having an abortion you are ending a life, it’s no different to killing a baby of 3 months old (or any age person 1day to 120 years old!) So no argument about women’s choices for whatever reason they got pregnant makes any difference. Same rules apply for a baby at 3 months post birth to a baby 3 months gestation. Many people do think that women’s choice matters very much but that a baby’s life trumps that, if forced to choose. So it’s not so much about thinking their options are special or more important in that sense. Is there anything anyone could say that would make you think it’s ok to kill a 3 month old baby? Any reasons at all? There is no difference in a pro lifers mind between then and abortion

Mine wasn't lightly as in, I wanted the baby and I was heartbroken and ended up having counselling after it. But the actual decision was simple, as it will be if it happens again
I can't afford to have children so.. that's that