to think "no woman aborts a baby lightly" is untrue and unhelpful?

[ZoeCM]

I've noticed this phrase being used a lot following the news about Texas. I'm pro-choice, and I don't think it helps our cause.

There are women who have abortions lightly. It's not a myth started by the Daily Mail. I don't even think it's necessarily even that rare.

There are women who actively want a baby in the near future, are in stable relationships, aren't even using contraception, but still decide to abort because the timing isn't 100% perfect: they don't want to cancel their holiday abroad, or give birth until the extension on their house is finished. Trust me, it happens. Does anyone really think those women agonised over whether the holiday/extension was more important than the baby, before painfully including that abortion was the only option? Of course not. And that's fine. Women shouldn't have to ask if their reasons for aborting are "good enough".

Then there are the women who are on their fifth or sixth abortion - workers at abortion clinics will confirm that this does happen. It seems unlikely that those women agonised over their decisions either, because presumably they would have put some long-term contraception in place to stop it happening again. I expect most of them come from pretty traumatic backgrounds, but that doesn't mean their decision to abort isn't made perfectly casually.

This phrase is a gift for pro-lifers, because it's so easily disproved: many of them will have stories about women they know who've had abortions without a second thought. A better argument would simply be that it doesn't matter why a woman wants an abortion: she should be allowed one because it's her body and her choice.

@FfrothiCoffi

There are absolutely girls that do this. And yes it's their choice but it doesn't make it ok that they keep doing it. It isn't a decision that should be taken lightly in the sense of oh I'll just keep on doing it.

My uni friends were the same, there was no way they were going to drop out of uni to have a baby and ruin their career prospects, it's a no brainer really so young.

I don't know your friends' situation, but we really need to stop the whole 'a baby ruins your life' trope, it can be quite disheartening to hear for young parents. It doesn't have to be the end of your education or career, we live in a developed country.

Sorry, slightly off topic. Just think we should encourage everyone, let's not put down one choice to uphold another.

It’s absolutely fine for you to be anti abortion, no one is forcing you to have one. People who are pro choice aren’t asking you to do anything. People who are pro life are asking people to give birth to babies that they do not want. To go through a pregnancy, a birth… It’s fine to not ever want an abortion. It isn’t fine to tell someone else what they must do with their bodies

You are misunderstanding her argument. She thinks abortion is morally wrong. She doesn't just mean it is wrong for her, she means it is wrong for everyone as her focus is the foetus/ unborn child. Just like someone who is against capital punishment, isn't just against it being applied to them, but to everyone.

It basically boils down your understanding of what constitutes a life worthy of respect as a life. And how the respect that life should be accorded is balanced against the life choices of another person. So no, its not fair to say this is just a debate of individual choice, as clearly from the position of pro lifers there is more than one life involved in the decision. And that is a position worthy of respect and serious discussion even if you disagree.

I think it is really unfortunate how acrimonious this debate gets as it seems to me a very clear example of a debate where both positions are intellectually and morally respectable.

There are absolutely girls that do this.
But if thats the case do you honestly believe its better for those girls to be forced inyo motherhood? The chances are they'd resent the child or the child would be taken into care putting more strain on an already failing system and causing the child emotional damage. Why would anyone want that when it can so easily be avoided?

I knew someone who got an abortion because she didn't have a ring on her finger or the big house. Within a year she had those things and was pregnant again. Some women are shockingly self absorbed and selfish

Some women are shockingly self absorbed and selfish

Yet you see on here people saying not to have kids until you have the security if marriage and the space for them. Women can't win.

’I don't know your friends' situation, but we really need to stop the whole 'a baby ruins your life' trope.’

I think it makes everything much more difficult. Abortion is the logical choice for pregnant teenagers.

I just can't get over why some people seem to think that their approval (or otherwise) is of any relevance to other people's private medical decisions.

I'm not religious so I give no shits about what your religion says about anything. Why should I?

You do what your conscience/religion/flying spaghetti monster tells you to do with your own body and life, and I'll do the same.

@Plastic01

I knew someone who got an abortion because she didn't have a ring on her finger or the big house. Within a year she had those things and was pregnant again. Some women are shockingly self absorbed and selfish

@Plastic01 Are you really saying women are 'self absorbed and selfish' for wanting security for themselves and their child? Really? Sounds admirable to me.

My school friend appeared to use abortion as a means of contraception. She told me she'd had several before she was 21. I tried to talk about the risks of unprotected sex but it was like talking to a brick wall. I doubted whether she was being honest about them and considered whether she was telling me for the attention and shock value. I felt more and more disgusted with her actions

I am a bit aghast at the assumption that women who have multiple abortions are just bad people. Without knowing them, we have not idea of their backstory or even whether they have any agency over who enters their bodies. Never judge someone without first hearing their story is a good maxim in the main.

Being pro life is definitely a stance for the privileged. To be anti abortion you don't have to give up anything or do any self examination at all. All you have to do is shame people and in return you get self satisfaction and moral superiority.

Pro lifers don't care about women, or babies actually, because if those babies grow up to be gay or trans they are cast aside as well. All they care about is getting the moral high ground at the lowest cost to themselves.

@Carboncheque

’I don't know your friends' situation, but we really need to stop the whole 'a baby ruins your life' trope.’

I think it makes everything much more difficult. Abortion is the logical choice for pregnant teenagers.

That's fine, I know that, I've lived it. Insinuating that it's the end of the world to have a baby young (exaggerating slightly, but yea, many people do act like this) makes life harder for those of us who continue.

That's all there is to my point, never said disguise the fact, but tell both sides. Let's also motivate and uplift young parents rather than spreading doom and gloom🤷🏻‍♀️

Obviously I'm taking this personal so may well be unreasonable. But it's as I say, disheartening and tiresome when nobody believes in you

@girlchat, for this particular woman it wasn't about security, she already had a loving partner, good job, roof over her head. For her it was about having a big flash wedding and a detached house.

@mulberymonth

It’s absolutely fine for you to be anti abortion, no one is forcing you to have one. People who are pro choice aren’t asking you to do anything. People who are pro life are asking people to give birth to babies that they do not want. To go through a pregnancy, a birth… It’s fine to not ever want an abortion. It isn’t fine to tell someone else what they must do with their bodies

You are misunderstanding her argument. She thinks abortion is morally wrong. She doesn't just mean it is wrong for her, she means it is wrong for everyone as her focus is the foetus/ unborn child. Just like someone who is against capital punishment, isn't just against it being applied to them, but to everyone.

It basically boils down your understanding of what constitutes a life worthy of respect as a life. And how the respect that life should be accorded is balanced against the life choices of another person. So no, its not fair to say this is just a debate of individual choice, as clearly from the position of pro lifers there is more than one life involved in the decision. And that is a position worthy of respect and serious discussion even if you disagree.

I think it is really unfortunate how acrimonious this debate gets as it seems to me a very clear example of a debate where both positions are intellectually and morally respectable.

So why are those people never, ever, as outspoken in the support of free, easily accessible contraception, honest and open sex education, and work to support children in care?

Perhaps because actually, women's sexuality is something to be policed and punished.

I will not accept the "moral acceptability" of forced birthers when they don't actively support and campaign for the things which would actually reduce abortions.

For her it was about having a big flash wedding and a detached house. so? What's wrong with that?

You are misunderstanding her argument. She thinks abortion is morally wrong. She doesn't just mean it is wrong for her, she means it is wrong for everyone as her focus is the foetus/ unborn child. Just like someone who is against capital punishment, isn't just against it being applied to them, but to everyone

Not misunderstanding it at all. I just don’t think her beliefs should impact my choices. I don’t believe in God, so why does the fact that she does impact me? Or anyone else for that matter?

@FfrothiCoffi

You are misunderstanding her argument. She thinks abortion is morally wrong. She doesn't just mean it is wrong for her, she means it is wrong for everyone as her focus is the foetus/ unborn child. Just like someone who is against capital punishment, isn't just against it being applied to them, but to everyone

Not misunderstanding it at all. I just don’t think her beliefs should impact my choices. I don’t believe in God, so why does the fact that she does impact me? Or anyone else for that matter?

Some people believe life begins at conception, and not all are religious. To them, it is their business if you're ending a life.

They would argue it's like arguing them smacking their child is none of your business, and that you shouldn't smack your kids if you don't like smacking.

Fair to disagree but the viewpoint is quite obvious. They care because they see it as life already, and life with value worth preserving

They care because they see it as life already, and life with value worth preserving

I wonder what she’s doing to support these preserved lives, and the women who have been forced to birth them against their will?

I wish more people would have abortions, then there wouldn’t be so much child abuse and neglect.

One thing you have to praise pro life activists for is the way they take care of babies born as a result of their pressure. The money they give to the parents for 18 years, the way they are there for them, the way they ensure the children have good lives. It's not like they shout long and loud then once the baby is born they don't give a shit.

Oh, hang on...

@FfrothiCoffi

They care because they see it as life already, and life with value worth preserving

I wonder what she’s doing to support these preserved lives, and the women who have been forced to birth them against their will?

I agree, if you see it as a child, what are you doing for it. But that's a different point entirely!

I think the rhetoric around pregnancy is very dishonest. Describing a foetus as just a blob of jelly or a bunch of cells. We are all a bunch of cells so okay to kill each other. Someone said a foetus does not have bones, there are joints forming at 8 weeks and hardening of the bones at 12 weeks. We need to be honest about this and the minimising of what is actually taking place is quite distressing to read. I think in some circumstances abortion might be the lesser of 2 evils but it will always be the termination of a life that is defenceless. I personally think that women, like men, have a choice not to have sex and if they willingly have sex they should accept that a pregnancy might result. That is what I tell my son. I don't see why it should be different for women.
And for those that day we are all welcome to our own opinions, abortion is ending a life/ stopping a heartbeat and therefore is a moral decision for which there is guidance and legislation. I would love abortion to not be necessary and certainly think we allow healthy foetuses to be killed far too late in pregnancy.
FWIW I have had unwanted pregnancies but now have very lived children. It is disingenuous to say that all unwanted pregnancies will lead to unwanted children. A large proportion of women who abort because timing not quite convenient would end up loving those children of they did not abort. I know for a fact( including myself) several women who were debated to find themselves pregnant, one of them had 3 grown up children and a failing marriage, but because of religious convictions, all went ahead with pregnancies and are now all fine and coping.

I don't agree with abortions after 12 weeks, only under special circumstances and definitely don't think people should be able to to go for multiple abortions. I didn't find out I was pregnant the first time til I was 16 weeks. I chose to continue the pregnancy, but I still needed the chance to make the choice. Just because I found out later than you did doesn't mean I wouldn't/couldn't have the same feelings as you.

devastated not debated

abortion is ending a life/ stopping a heartbeat and therefore is a moral decision
So you don't treat your family for worms then? That's stopping possibly hundreds of heartbeats.