to think "no woman aborts a baby lightly" is untrue and unhelpful?

[ZoeCM]

I've noticed this phrase being used a lot following the news about Texas. I'm pro-choice, and I don't think it helps our cause.

There are women who have abortions lightly. It's not a myth started by the Daily Mail. I don't even think it's necessarily even that rare.

There are women who actively want a baby in the near future, are in stable relationships, aren't even using contraception, but still decide to abort because the timing isn't 100% perfect: they don't want to cancel their holiday abroad, or give birth until the extension on their house is finished. Trust me, it happens. Does anyone really think those women agonised over whether the holiday/extension was more important than the baby, before painfully including that abortion was the only option? Of course not. And that's fine. Women shouldn't have to ask if their reasons for aborting are "good enough".

Then there are the women who are on their fifth or sixth abortion - workers at abortion clinics will confirm that this does happen. It seems unlikely that those women agonised over their decisions either, because presumably they would have put some long-term contraception in place to stop it happening again. I expect most of them come from pretty traumatic backgrounds, but that doesn't mean their decision to abort isn't made perfectly casually.

This phrase is a gift for pro-lifers, because it's so easily disproved: many of them will have stories about women they know who've had abortions without a second thought. A better argument would simply be that it doesn't matter why a woman wants an abortion: she should be allowed one because it's her body and her choice.

Tunmala no woman should be stgmatised for pregancy, or for ending said pregnancy. End of.

I completely agree with you.

I think people should definitely be able to make the choice whether to have a baby or not. Whether its unplanned. Contraception fail or whatever the reason. I've done it myself.

But girls who literally have unprotected sex often and instead of going to get the morning after pill they just have an abortion. Can anyone actually say that is OK?

Yes a few friends of mine got pregnant in college and uni. I remember my college friend getting really irritated when she went to renew a prescription for contraception and the woman saw on her medical record she'd had a termination a few months before. She asked "do you think you need counselling or to talk through your feelings?" My friend's only feelings were of relief that she was still able to go to uni that summer and not about to become a mother! She politely declined the offer but was annoyed that she was made to feel like she was wrong to be happy about her decision and not in need of counselling. My uni friends were the same, there was no way they were going to drop out of uni to have a baby and ruin their career prospects, it's a no brainer really so young.

@Lexie365

I am a catholic and I am completely against abortion, it IS a baby and it IS murder but I don't think women are evil for having them I do however abortion is evil and I think society has been brainwashed into thinking it's ok, if you look back throughout history things that would happen that were considered "normal" that never would be now simply because it was the done thing back then and it was just something people were used too. An unborn baby has the right to life and my heart breaks for women who are seeking abortions because of rape, abuse etc but yes I still believe the child should be born. Of course it is horrible for children in care and a lot of the situations are heartbreaking but atleast they are alive and have the chance to have a good life, just like you wouldn't murder someone with a bad life because there life wasn't happy anyway.The few posters who disagree with abortion are being attacked on here which isnt fair we are all just giving our opinions. And for those saying so what? Mind your business! I believe abortion is murder and whether you agree with that or not would you mind your own business when its came to murder? Would it be upsetting or atleast make you uncomfortable if someone murdered some one and spoke so casually about it? I'm just trying to explain for those who genuinely don't understand why it would bother me or anyone else who is pro life.

I’m catholic too, however I am 100% pro choice. I just want to ask what you yourself do to support those children that are placed into the care system? What do you do to support mothers who have been victims of abuse and rape and then have to bring up the child that is a result of that, potentially a daily reminder of their abuser? How do you feel about men who participate in creating the pregnancy and then play no part in supporting the woman financially or emotionally? If the woman wants a termination, shouldn’t the men be made to step up? I just find religion to be such a cop out when using it to justify why people want to take away a women’s right to make a choice regarding her own body!

I was raised Catholic and was very upset at the idea of late term abortions. Until I turned up to a D&E list at med school. Now it may not have been representative but these women (who were ending pregnacies at 15+ weeks) all had incredibly compying reasons for doing so (a young girl had been raped, another women had a 6 month old in a studio flat, one women was 45 and recently divorced with young adult children) none of them had realised they were pregnant until gone 12 weeks. Child birth would have been incredibly traumatic. I changed my mind that day.....

Not making a decision 'lightly' means thinking about it, making a decision and acting on it.

It can take all of 5 seconds, but that doesn't mean that the decision is made 'lightly'.

When a decision is made 'lightly' the consequences will either be the same whatever action is taken or they won't really matter.

Patently, neither of these are true when it comes to abortion.

It's only a gift for the force birthers if people buy into their 'abortion = trauma' line.

Although it is important to bear in mind that abortion can cause trauma

The Bible is supportive of abortion

Is it? I’d be interested to know which bit of it says that.

@Bambam2019 I 100% think men should be made to step up and while I think abortion is evil and shouldny exist I dont judge the mother for having one, I do however judge any man who walks away from his child/ren simply because he can't be arsed

@drpet49

*I find it very difficult to comprehend people who are lax with contraception and think 'oh it's fine, I'll just have an abortion'.*

^I agree

You find it difficult to comprehend, but they aren't you. You haven't walked in their shoes, and if they don't want to continue a pregnancy, so be it. Yes of course offer them contraceptive advice and support (that always happened in my day, I assume it still does) but I will not judge someone who feels unable to continue with a pregnancy.

But girls who literally have unprotected sex often and instead of going to get the morning after pill they just have an abortion. Can anyone actually say that is OK?

I do not know anyone who does this, and I do not believe it is a widespread issue.
However yes, I still believe they should have the choice to end that pregnancy. The alternative is forcing them to give birth to a baby they don’t want. Do you believe that would lead to good outcomes for either the mother or the baby?

Oh and before 12 weeks as others say it's not even a fetus, although I can't imagine multiple abortions are pleasant and would try to find out what was going on for a women who needed abortion very frequently.....

@traumatisednoodle

I was raised Catholic and was very upset at the idea of late term abortions. Until I turned up to a D&E list at med school. Now it may not have been representative but these women (who were ending pregnacies at 15+ weeks) all had incredibly compying reasons for doing so (a young girl had been raped, another women had a 6 month old in a studio flat, one women was 45 and recently divorced with young adult children) none of them had realised they were pregnant until gone 12 weeks. Child birth would have been incredibly traumatic. I changed my mind that day.....

This is the nub of the issue.

Once abortions are viewed within women's real life experience, rather than from some abstract moral vantage point, the fact that they are health care becomes very clear.

I would have had an abortion without any worries had I got pregnant when I was young. I was very careful with contraception but had I got pregnant I would have got an abortion without a second though. It be different if it were a late abortion.
I had a miscarriage when I was three months pregnant and I was upset but it really wasn't a big deal to me at all. I felt sad but I didn't feel bereaved at all.

To me it was a failed pregnancy and not a lost child as in all likely hood it was just a pregnancy that hadn't developed properly.

Obviously if I had had multiple miscarriages or a late miscarriage I would it would have felt very different to me. I understand that everyone is different and I understand why some women are so devastated when they have miscarriage but it's important to know that not everyone feels the same way.

Although it is important to bear in mind that abortion can cause trauma

Thank you for saying this. Is important.

I don’t consider the weight a woman attaches to it any of my business. That is because it isn’t.

Once a child is born you’re left to it so why this obsession with making decisions for people? People care more about foisting their opinion of choice and what is life than they do about the actual baby let’s face it. Otherwise why would we live in a society where women and children are at the bottom of the food chain and the overwhelming victims of societal malfunction?

I would far rather a woman had an abortion than bring an unwanted child into the world: a child that paid the price all their life in different ways for society being a judgmental bystander.

If men were the ones who got pregnant there would not be things like the horror show that’s unfolding in Texas alongside every other expression of legislated misogynistic control freakery over a woman’s right to reproductive and contraceptive sovereignty.

I approach the concepts of pregnancy and motherhood and womanhood in two ways. One: for myself in a highly subjective and personalised context. The second? Whatever the hell it means for any and every other woman as it does for me. End of.

I started reading thinking I was going to wholeheartedly disagree with your viewpoint. But by the end, yes you had me. I completely concur with what you're saying.

@Blossomtoes

The Bible is supportive of abortion

Is it? I’d be interested to know which bit of it says that.

Here are some references.

[quote HerRoyalRisesAgain]**@Hoodie23

All these saying there should be a limit, imagine this scenario...
1 woman

Pregnant at 16 has an abortion not ready to be a mum
A few years later her contraception fails. Another abortion.
Then she plans a pregnancy, but very early on her partner becomes abusive. She ends the pregnancy and escapes domestic violence
Shes now 30, and single. She's raped after a night out, discovers she's pregnant to the rapist. Aborts so she's not raising a rapists child
Then she's finally in a happy relationship, pregnant but the child won't make it after the birth, it's not developed as expected so she aborts to save herself the heartache of continuing the pregnancy

Thats 5 abortions. Which pregnancy/pregnancies should she have continued?

^ can you answer which pregnancies she should have been forced to continue?[/quote]

@Hoodie23 didn't say abortion should be limited. It's a perfectly normal reaction to be shocked at multiple abortions, particularly past 12 weeks. Most wouldn't outwardly say anything.

I think it's disingenuous and unreasonable to act like people can't have reactions to such things. I think it's commendable to support abortion and a woman's right to choose, even when you internally question the rationale behind an individual's choice (putting your own opinions aside)

It’s a very difficult topic. I don’t agree with abortion, but I respect women’s right to have one and I’d never join a group to change the law or anything like that. It’s just my own personal decision.

I was once put in the position to have an abortion, but couldn’t bring myself to do it. I kept the baby. I know that if I had an abortion I wouldn’t be able to live with the guilt. I’ve tried and tested that theory and know it to be true.

I do know a few people who have had them. One is now late 40’s and childless. I think she may regret that decision now.

@HavelockVetinari

I believe that a woman's right to bodily autonomy should always trump a baby's right to life.

I also think casual abortion without it being a horrible decision is wrong - it's a baby, a human life.

Doesn't mean I'd ban abortion, but women who can kill their own baby without a moral twinge are either psychologically damaged or genuinely evil.

This is along the lines of my thinking too.

I'm pro choice all of the way, but some women are really reckless and careless with it.

I know somebody who's had 4 abortions, not taken one precaution to avoid either pregnancy beforehand and then continued to have unprotected sex afterwards because in her mind it's easily sorted if she does fall pregnant.

Just horrible.

I also have a very, very low opinion of men who have unprotected sex without thought nor feeling about the ramifications and any potential pregnancy that comes about as a result.

I only agree with abortion in very specific circumstances.

Like when a woman is pregnant and doesn’t want to be.

@notforonesecond

I only agree with abortion in very specific circumstances.

Like when a woman is pregnant and doesn’t want to be.

👏🏻

I approach the concepts of pregnancy and motherhood and womanhood in two ways. One: for myself in a highly subjective and personalised context. The second? Whatever the hell it means for any and every other woman as it does for me. End of.

Absolutely right. The judgement here is awful - in both directions. I’m just as appalled at someone’s sincerely held religious beliefs described as brainwashing as I am at the posts attempting to shame posters who are pro choice. Both are equally abhorrent.

@notforonesecond

I only agree with abortion in very specific circumstances.

Like when a woman is pregnant and doesn’t want to be.

Brilliant

My school friend appeared to use abortion as a means of contraception. She told me she'd had several before she was 21.

I tried to talk about the risks of unprotected sex but it was like talking to a brick wall. I doubted whether she was being honest about them and considered whether she was telling me for the attention and shock value. I felt more and more disgusted with her actions.

She also killed herself a few years later. She had a terrible homelife, hated her mother and never wanted children herself. Maybe I could have been more understanding?

I've since worked with many women that have struggled coming to terms with abortions, despite the foetus being the result of rape or not developing properly or due to the mother's health. I believe it's not something easily forgotten or insignificant in the vast majority of cases.