AIBU to ask if anyone cares? (Passports)

[Revertion]

I'm posting here rather than in the CV board because I don't think this is actually about the virus anymore.

We all saw it coming, some earlier than others, but it's coming on the 1st of October.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/covid-19-vaccine-passports-required-in-scotland-for-entry-to-large-venues-from-1-october-12403321

https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-mandatory-vaccine-certification/

Honestly I could weep. And I can say that as someone who this plan, in it's current iteration at least, is not going to affect in any way.

But this is setting a precedent. An unprecedented change to our way of life and it has happened without being mentioned on any manifesto, without public consultation, and without clear plans, scopes, limitations and exemptions having been finalised.

It’s saying that in this country, we can limit your daily life based on your perceived health status and we can measure that perceived health status any way we choose to and we don’t need to provide any scientific reasoning, justification, or evidence that there is a need for it or benefits to it.

That is without getting into details about human rights, valid exemptions, and the blinding issue of an end date being based on ministers (not medics or experts) consideration on preventing spread of CV, when the very same plan says, regarding negative testing as an alternative, that it is not considered appropriate because it would undermine one of the main aims which is to encourage vaccination.

So the scope of the plan is not even aligned with the aim.

That is the precedent we are setting here and it is coming from a government who are attempting to make emergency powers permanent (subject to public consultation - for which there is already a CLEAR PRECEDENT of this government entirely disregarding on other issues).

Yes, yes, slippery slopes are a fallacy and all that. But can we call it that when the top of the slope isn't ethically or morally 'correct' and you don't have to make too many logical distinctions or conclusions before you get to the bottom?

AIBU to think this has the potential to be dangerous?

And, specifically if you are in Scotland or follow Scottish politics, AIBU to think the current government really have no line when it comes to their reach into personal lives and freedoms?

(This is coming straight off the back off their attempts to make emergency powers permanent, the 4 year olds can change gender, the thoughts can be a hate crime, etc. Where does it end?).

I'm really having a 'final nail in the coffin' moment this morning. Feel utterly powerless. BUT prepared to be told I'm unreasonable because I'm apparently also a masochist....

@Revertion

They very clearly state that there will be exemptions for those unable to be vaccinated.

But, as far as I'm aware (and prepared to be corrected) there is currently no means of getting an exemption and even if there were, they haven't actually defined what a valid reason for exemption would be?

Contraindications?

Phobias?

Mental health issues?

This is 20 days away from being implemented. Have GPs been consulted? Are they all agreed on what a valid medical exemption looks like?

I'd say contraindications only,

I am completely with you OP.

It is terrifying that the SNP and their wee crusty mates in the Greens can do what the hell they like in the name of "keeping us safe" and people are just rolling over and taking it. Because Queen Nicola isn't Boris and is keeping us safe. They are so fucking brainwashed by her schtick that they are happy to let her do what she wants.

"I'd say contraindications only,"

I honestly find that view terrifying.

@BubbleCoffee

I don't want this to happen. This is supposed to be a free country with the minimum of state control. Freedom of speech and thought, freedom to move around without surveillance, freedom of artistic expression, freedom to disagree etc. and our rights to privacy of personal and medical information are shrinking ever more rapidly.

Not in Scotland.

Already they have introduced minimum alcohol pricing as an attempt to control alcohol consumption.

They tried to control how parents bring up their children with their Named Person legislation which would have seen a teacher or social worker making parenting decisions.

They want to make their covid emergency powers permanent.

Over the last year we have been subject to far more restrictions than in England. For around 6 months we were legally prevented from leaving our local council areas for non-essential reasons.

The Hate Crime bill makes it a criminal offence to say you don't believe people can change sex. There is already a woman being taken to court for saying exactly that.

It is the very definition of a nanny state up here, the SNP want to control everything and people are prepared to keep voting for them because they don't like the "Toaries" and really don't like Boris. They are prepared to look over the shit policies, the corruption, the lack of accountability, and the paying Janey Fucking Godley £12k for some shite TV ads because independence. Freedeom from Westmonster and the English.

What a shitshow.

The figures I've quoted are Scottish figures per the government,

Also the figures are the % of eligible to be vaccinated ie are the the % vaccinated in Scotland who are over the age of 16.

Have the govt gave a timescale for how long these passports will be in place for?

For as long as Nicola Sturgeon, Humza Yousaf and John Swinney deem necessary, @Idyllic.

@Chloemol

Oh dear, never mind. If you want to go somewhere get vaccinated, simple as that

It’s to protect everyone

It's not though.

Vaccinated people can still get and pass on covid. Scientists are saying that delta in particular is more likely to spread through vaccinated people. And that people with the delta variant carry as much virus in their nose as an unvaccinated person.

The vaccine still offers good protection to the individual so it should be a more mild illness.

That's the fly in the ointment of covid passports. They don't protect people in the wider sense in that transmission is very much still possible. They breed a false sense of security.

I think it’s an excellent idea. People aren’t wearing masks and are walking around as though no pandemic. This needs to happen! I don’t want another bloody lockdown

ID cards have been in place on the continent now for a long time...what sinister scheme has it ended in? Nothing.

I support better universally accepted state ID in the UK, though another posters has pointed out one of the risks of them being compulsory. For a British example, Biometric Residency Permits in the UK have caused a number of issues for immigrants who already had indefinite leave to remain when they came into force and then had to prove sometimes decades of residency or lose their rights to work or access services or rent. Family carers have been particularly vulnerable.

I don't think it's a 'sinister scheme', I think people tend to forget the people who get fucked over by these changes when it's not them and that assholes will use any tool available to them to exert power over others. These changes always have benefits for some people and risks that hurt others.

I've no strong opinion on vaccine passports, even less if we're talking international borders rather than domestic movement, but I can acknowledge it has it's risks in isolating vulnerable members of the population. We currently have no idea how they'll handle exceptions and little sign of any action that they give a fuck. Not everyone has a smart phone for the app. Not everyone who has a smart phone has one that will use these apps. We've already been told the paper given at vaccination is not enough. Some are going to get fucked over, and generally, it feels like a distraction to fit an image - much like BRP is for immigration and CCTV for crime prevention - than anything that solves the issues COVID has brought up or grown.

And all the double vaccinated clubbers could get sick as dogs too. And then - off work, pressure on NHS etc. So what was the point of the passports..?

Do people still not get this? Vaccinated people are far less likely to become ill, this who do are far less likely to be hospitalised. When they are, they are far less likely to need an ICU bed, and will stay for a day or two rather than a week or two. That’s the point of the passports.

Just like seatbelts are there to prevent serious or fatal injuries in a crash, not to stop the car crashing in the first place. Do people really not understand this, or is it something they keep telling themselves to justify their decision not to vaccinate?

@forinborin

As a third party national from many countries around the world, to get into the UK you have to pass a TB scan before you are allowed to cross the border. I still remember waiting for my scan a decade ago at the airport, feeling incredibly anxious. Other countries demand to be HIV clear before you are admitted in. Yes, even in the EU. It is not like it is a new thing.

These are the only countries that have a total entry bar on people diagnosed with HIV. None are in the EU and consist of those that also punish homosexuality and discriminate against women.

Brunei
Equatorial Guinea
Iran
Iraq
Jordan
Russia
Solomon Islands
United Arab Emirates (UAE)
Yemen

I don’t believe any country in the world tests for HIV at point of entry. Given that the vast majority of PLHIV in the U.K. are on effective meds and no risk to anyone it’s not really relevant to the thread.

I had to have a scan for TB many years ago when spending several months in Switzerland. I had no issue with that as if by any chance I had it, it’s something that can be passed on very easily to others.

Hope that gives some perspective.

We currently have no idea how they'll handle exceptions and little sign of any action that they give a fuck.

I had a look, medical and age exemptions are in place. Apparently the number of people currently medically unable to be vaccinated is 1 in 1000. So your average night club will have less than one person who is exempt.

Covid passports are already a thing where I am. To get in any venue/shop with a capacity of more than ten, you need to show it at the door.

And wear a mask.

@BoredZelda

And all the double vaccinated clubbers could get sick as dogs too. And then - off work, pressure on NHS etc. So what was the point of the passports..?

Do people still not get this? Vaccinated people are far less likely to become ill, this who do are far less likely to be hospitalised. When they are, they are far less likely to need an ICU bed, and will stay for a day or two rather than a week or two. That’s the point of the passports.

Just like seatbelts are there to prevent serious or fatal injuries in a crash, not to stop the car crashing in the first place. Do people really not understand this, or is it something they keep telling themselves to justify their decision not to vaccinate?

Unvaccinated people are still going to socialise though or generally be reckless because they don't give a shit about Covid (assuming they can have a vaccine).

It's not going to make them sit at home shielding. It's a small minority of the adult population that are unvaccinated.

Unvaccinated kids spread it like wildfire in schools, but they aren't going to nightclubs.

Scientists are saying that delta in particular is more likely to spread through vaccinated people. And that people with the delta variant carry as much virus in their nose as an unvaccinated person.

Source?

I personally don't mind if we have to get one.

I am in Scotland and got the copy through NHS Scotland covid website as prove as I thought this was coming.

To me when travelling abroad I feel the covid jag will be added to the list of required jags like all the others already.

@BoredZelda

Scientists are saying that delta in particular is more likely to spread through vaccinated people. And that people with the delta variant carry as much virus in their nose as an unvaccinated person.

Source?

www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02187-1

To be honest it was widely discussed in the news in recent weeks.

@BoredZelda

And all the double vaccinated clubbers could get sick as dogs too. And then - off work, pressure on NHS etc. So what was the point of the passports..?

Do people still not get this? Vaccinated people are far less likely to become ill, this who do are far less likely to be hospitalised. When they are, they are far less likely to need an ICU bed, and will stay for a day or two rather than a week or two. That’s the point of the passports.

Just like seatbelts are there to prevent serious or fatal injuries in a crash, not to stop the car crashing in the first place. Do people really not understand this, or is it something they keep telling themselves to justify their decision not to vaccinate?

I agree with this.

I would add that although I agree needing a vaccine passport is a concerning erosion into people’s autonomy to choose, it’s a tiny infringement of people’s rights compared to a national lockdown, or other restrictions on day to day life, which we might be facing if hospitalisations continue to rise.

I'm against this in principle. The 'good reasons for it being put in place (protecting vulnerable) will very quickly be overtaken by those who want to exert control on a population and it has the potential to slip into other areas of our life unless closely regulated.

I don't think anyone should be coersed into taking this or any other vaccine or medical treatment. I am very concerned at the potential consequences of it going ahead.

To add - I have had my covid jabs. This decision won't affect me directly right now but I dislike the direction things are going in.

OP,

What exactly is your solution?

All I see from people like you is moaning about actions that have been taken. Never do people like you provide solutions.

I am sick of this crap. We are in and have been in a pandemic for 18 months now. It has been shit for all. And worse for many others who have lost husbands, wives, parents, children, uncles, aunties, and friends. Etc etc etc

And you equate this to a hit on your civil liberties?

YANBU

I think it’s an excellent idea. People aren’t wearing masks and are walking around as though no pandemic. This needs to happen! I don’t want another bloody lockdown
It's working well in France and Ireland

[quote YouMeandtheSpew]@Geamhradh

Yes I think those figures are for the population as a whole and the figures I gave are for the adult population (higher in the very vulnerable groups) as per the figures @tigger1001 shared.[/quote]
Ok, thanks.
It was interesting to see how high Portugal is now. When I was preening over getting my first Vax my Portuguese friend was saying she had no idea when it would be offered to non CV people.

In Italy it's been a police state since 1 September. You get the jabs or get excluded from normal life and also from many occupations. I've done what they demanded while internally raising the middle finger.

I had the jab, my teens have had the jab, on my paediatrician's advice my 10yo will be getting the jab as soon as it comes out for kids, probably in the next 6 months or so. My kids and their friends need their lives back and that's that.

The mental health toll of all these restrictions far outweighs any risk or my indignation at creeping state control.

I was reluctant to have it. Now I've had it, I don't care any more.

I'll concentrate my efforts on learning how to vote, instead.

I don’t believe any country in the world tests for HIV at point of entry. Given that the vast majority of PLHIV in the U.K. are on effective meds and no risk to anyone it’s not really relevant to the thread.
Not at the point of entry. Poland will not allow HIV positive visits over 90 days. Hungary will deport HIV positive people who are not complying with their treatment.