AIBU to ask if anyone cares? (Passports)

[Revertion]

I'm posting here rather than in the CV board because I don't think this is actually about the virus anymore.

We all saw it coming, some earlier than others, but it's coming on the 1st of October.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/covid-19-vaccine-passports-required-in-scotland-for-entry-to-large-venues-from-1-october-12403321

https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-mandatory-vaccine-certification/

Honestly I could weep. And I can say that as someone who this plan, in it's current iteration at least, is not going to affect in any way.

But this is setting a precedent. An unprecedented change to our way of life and it has happened without being mentioned on any manifesto, without public consultation, and without clear plans, scopes, limitations and exemptions having been finalised.

It’s saying that in this country, we can limit your daily life based on your perceived health status and we can measure that perceived health status any way we choose to and we don’t need to provide any scientific reasoning, justification, or evidence that there is a need for it or benefits to it.

That is without getting into details about human rights, valid exemptions, and the blinding issue of an end date being based on ministers (not medics or experts) consideration on preventing spread of CV, when the very same plan says, regarding negative testing as an alternative, that it is not considered appropriate because it would undermine one of the main aims which is to encourage vaccination.

So the scope of the plan is not even aligned with the aim.

That is the precedent we are setting here and it is coming from a government who are attempting to make emergency powers permanent (subject to public consultation - for which there is already a CLEAR PRECEDENT of this government entirely disregarding on other issues).

Yes, yes, slippery slopes are a fallacy and all that. But can we call it that when the top of the slope isn't ethically or morally 'correct' and you don't have to make too many logical distinctions or conclusions before you get to the bottom?

AIBU to think this has the potential to be dangerous?

And, specifically if you are in Scotland or follow Scottish politics, AIBU to think the current government really have no line when it comes to their reach into personal lives and freedoms?

(This is coming straight off the back off their attempts to make emergency powers permanent, the 4 year olds can change gender, the thoughts can be a hate crime, etc. Where does it end?).

I'm really having a 'final nail in the coffin' moment this morning. Feel utterly powerless. BUT prepared to be told I'm unreasonable because I'm apparently also a masochist....

@Thunderpunt

Any time a population has to 'present papers' at the behest of a government - it never ends well. This is shocking and people who support it should looks closely at recent history to see how this could pan out.

I find this a bit dramatic frankly.

Europeans have had ID cards for a long time and there's no issue.

We have actual passports that we have to present 'at the behest of a Govt' and that's fine.

I have to present my driving licence at certain times at 'the behest of a Govt' and it is limited by certain medical conditions as I have to update the DVLA every year about my condition.

TBH I don't see this as much different to the driving licence / medical condition scenario.

With the driving licence I have to prove that I am medically fit to do an activity I want to do without the risk of endangering others as a result of my medical condition.

@YouMeandtheSpew

The thing I don’t really understand (and I’m potentially being very slow) is why is it necessary? I’m not in Scotland but I understand that in England nearly 90% of adults have had their first jab, which presumably means in a few weeks 90% of adults will be fully vaccinated, and the proportion is even higher among vulnerable groups (sorry I don’t know what the level is in Scotland but I assume it’s similar). That level of take-up seems really high to me, far higher than initially estimated. So does it matter if 1 in 10 people can’t have it or don’t want it?

Yes a similar level of uptake here. Just over 90% of the over 16 population have had one dose.

But we do limit what people can do based on their perceived health. Like if someone appears intoxicated they shouldn't be served alcohol, many venues will refuse entry. This is presumably to protect the rest of society from the direct and indirect harms that come from excessive drinking. On what basis would diabetics and overweight people be treated this way? Theres no clear direct impact of the harms of obesity. Yes it's bad for society but in a different way imo.

I care OP. I’m utterly horrified by the direction we’re heading it. I’m too exhausted by it all to expand any further today. Some days it feels too much.

@Aquilegiagazer

I care OP, so much. I am actually devastated that people can't see where this is leading.

Not too long ago, on here, most MNetters were very wary about vaccines for children and Covid passports were a silly conspiracy theory that wouldn't happen...well look what happened.

Vaccinations are now on the way for 12-16 year olds and I am happy with that being a choice parents and children can make but what if the next step is vaccine passports for children? To attend large events to start with.. But then restaurants and pubs, soft play, supermarkets. And when the vaccine for 2-11 year olds is rolled out? The choice for parents and their children isn't so black and white then is it?

Where does it end?

This is a real worry for me.

It's nightclubs today (was a definition agreed on what constitutes a nightclub?) but what about when vaccines are offered to 12-16 year olds? What will a covid passport look like then?

@Ponoka7

My main worry is the lack of research on periods and reproductive health. Women's health is always the bottom of the pile and this has been shown again. So for that reason, I'm not sure.

And I agree with this!

So many women experienced issues with their periods. Not sure that's something we should be overlooking.

In principle I am in full agreement that those who can be vaccinated should in order to protect the vulnerable. But it’s clear that this sort of thing only serves to encourage the vaccine skeptics to dig their heels in.

I think it would be far more effective to make a negative pcr test mandatory for entry to a large event. I have recently had a number of fully vaccinated friends who have tested positive for Covid, some with no symptoms at all. I think the risks if the virus spreading are greater now than ever as we are all far more complacent now that we feel we are ‘safe’.

I am far from a vaccine skeptic and am fully vaccinated myself but it’s clear that the vaccine does not prevent Covid-19 infection in all cases, although I certainly agree that it does mitigate the effects and prevent hospitalisations.

I think if the aim is to actually stop the spread then pcr testing is the only way to ensure an event is as ‘Covid secure’ as possible. With the added bonus that it puts everyone on a level playing field and the Covid deniers can either put up or shut up and stop complaining that the government is trying to inject them with 5G or whatever the latest argument is.

How do people on the thread feel about the requirement to lodge medical conditions with the DVLA to drive then?

This is also perceived risk...

For example everyone who has a mental health condition is supposed to notify the DVLA and then; like me be on an annual or three year review of whether or not you can continue to drive.

My mental health condition and the medication I take for it have absolutely no impact on my driving.

My driving licence is much more important than being able to access a nightclub as my ability to earn a living depends on it.

Wheresmymojo One of the things I loved when we moved back to the UK, was being able to leave the house without needing to ensure I had my ID card and €5 on me. If I wanted to change my address at the bank, ID card needed; if I wanted to buy paracetamol, ID Card needed; outpatients and the GP, ID card needed. It was never ending.

@thegcatsmother

Wheresmymojo One of the things I loved when we moved back to the UK, was being able to leave the house without needing to ensure I had my ID card and €5 on me. If I wanted to change my address at the bank, ID card needed; if I wanted to buy paracetamol, ID Card needed; outpatients and the GP, ID card needed. It was never ending.

So, a minor inconvenience. I can't get worked up about that. I have to remember to take my phone everywhere (as my debit card is on it) and I manage that.

Except for those who can't be vaccinated because they're too young or too ill and those that have been vaccinated but their immune systems are unable to mount a response.

Firstly, I do have sincere sympathy for the people who fall into these categories and I understand how difficult their lives must be right now.

But the people who fall into this category (and would fall into similar categories) have lived among since long before covid happened and I don't think they have ever been "held up as an example" to such an extent on any other matter.

You could make the same logical argument for banning allergens in all public places to protect those who are vulnerable. We have never done this (or called for this). Instead the onus is - rightly or wrongly - on those affected to be mindful and take precautions. Sure you could hold up nuts on planes, but airlines give no guarantees and can't prevent it.

And again, the point about vaccine passports being less effective for keeping vulnerable people safe than negative screening or antibody passports stands for this too.

Where I live Covid passports have been compulsory since March - at the beginning it included shopping centres, hairdressers, restaurants and events on top. Now the first two don’t require them anymore.

It’s fine. I can’t get worked up about showing a QR code on my phone every time I go somewhere, it takes seconds. I also need to show them for work, as I move between different venues and some of them are external to our company.

BUT a certificate of recovery, or a negative test are accepted on top of the vaccination pass. I became fully vaccinated in July and until then, I’d just test myself every day or two (negative test only valid for use 24h), it was still fine although a bit time-consuming.

They’re saying tests will stop being compulsory next month for those eligible for the vaccine. Those who are medically exempt will get a free ‘testing prescription’. Vaccine exemptions here are certified by a medical professional, same as mask exemptions.

@wheresmymojo passports and ID cards are for identifiable purposes, not health related reasons.
And I thought you self declared in most cases for the DVLA with regard to medical issues

@Josette77

This is about protecting the vulnerable and I support it.

This.

That trumps the right to enter a large venue.

They’re saying tests will stop being compulsory next month for those eligible for the vaccine.

Sorry - tests will stop being free. Edit button please MN!

I care.
I don't like the direction this is heading in at all. Feels like boiling a frog.

One of the cleverest thing that happened at the start of this was to the highlighting of the absolute crazy of conspiracy theories. No-one wants to be like them for good reason. But it also means that any questioning of the direction we are headed in risks you being put in that category. So people dismiss their fears and concerns and find ways to justify extreme government overreach.

How are they going to prove the person showing them the qr code is actually them? Are we all going to need to carry id as well at all times now?

What about people who have had both jags but have changed their name since. Will the doctors update their vaccine record etc?

I'm with you, OP.
Bad precedent.
Not sure precedents will stand long, is some consolation. I mean, it's not like UK govt is going to keep abandoning all fiscal discipline forever.

In short run the only protest I plan is simply not to go places that require covid passes. My own little private pointless economic boycott. Restaurants etc. won't miss me, I'm sure, but it's the only way I can think to make my protest that isn't a giant headache in my life. I'd still accept rules to visit my family an airplane flight away, for instance. I'm not absolutely willing to forgo that.

My social media & some relatives are shouting that people who don't get vaccinated (against covid, since nothing else matters) should be denied medical treatment. I am speechless at their infectious insanity.

Am very glad I am not living in America with their new coercive employment policies.

@EileenGC

Where I live Covid passports have been compulsory since March - at the beginning it included shopping centres, hairdressers, restaurants and events on top. Now the first two don’t require them anymore.

It’s fine. I can’t get worked up about showing a QR code on my phone every time I go somewhere, it takes seconds. I also need to show them for work, as I move between different venues and some of them are external to our company.

BUT a certificate of recovery, or a negative test are accepted on top of the vaccination pass. I became fully vaccinated in July and until then, I’d just test myself every day or two (negative test only valid for use 24h), it was still fine although a bit time-consuming.

They’re saying tests will stop being compulsory next month for those eligible for the vaccine. Those who are medically exempt will get a free ‘testing prescription’. Vaccine exemptions here are certified by a medical professional, same as mask exemptions.

This was our experience in France last month too. I was surprised at 1) how everyone where we were just complied with good grace; and 2) how well the process worked.

Do you think you should be allowed pay cash for a plane ticket and walk on without going through security? No passport, no checks? If so then you have a point but if you agree with passports and safety and security checks then you really have nothing to complain about.

@BubbleCoffee

I don't want this to happen. This is supposed to be a free country with the minimum of state control. Freedom of speech and thought, freedom to move around without surveillance, freedom of artistic expression, freedom to disagree etc. and our rights to privacy of personal and medical information are shrinking ever more rapidly.

This is an odd way to look at our country.

We have all kinds of limitations over what we can and can't do.

You can't drive without a driving licence
You can't leave the UK without a passport (other than to Ireland)
There are many professions you can't do without a qualification
You can't drive above a certain speed, park in certain places
You can't be served alcohol under a certain age or if you look drunk already
You can't divorce unless you meet certain criteria (seperated two years etc)
You have to give the Govt a proportion of any income you make
Your children have to be educated
Every single criminal law is a limit on freedom
Every single regulation and piece of legislation is a limit on freedom

And complete freedom of speech doesn't exist either - you can't libel or defame people, you can't do anything that would offend 'public decency', there are certain viewpoints that you cannot express (rightly IMO but let's not pretend that it isn't a limit on freedom of speech).

Obviously there's no point listing the literally millions of ways our freedom is limited...but there are millions!

It's part of living in a society.

Totally agree with you OP. It's not about the virus and it has very sinister implications which all those disagreeing with you haven't really thought through. Covid passports today, what will it be tomorrow?

As an aside, I'm job hunting at the moment and a couple of jobs have specified only double vaccinated candidates will be considered. I am double jabbed so no agenda from me there

@thegcatsmother

Wheresmymojo One of the things I loved when we moved back to the UK, was being able to leave the house without needing to ensure I had my ID card and €5 on me. If I wanted to change my address at the bank, ID card needed; if I wanted to buy paracetamol, ID Card needed; outpatients and the GP, ID card needed. It was never ending.

DS has just had to activate an English Covid passport for a festival. It's on his phone. Most people never leave home without their phone.

and it has very sinister implications which all those disagreeing with you haven't really thought through.

Alternatively, maybe they have thought it through and disagree 🙄 So rude.

[quote Thunderpunt]@wheresmymojo passports and ID cards are for identifiable purposes, not health related reasons.
And I thought you self declared in most cases for the DVLA with regard to medical issues[/quote]

Self-declare, yes. But to not self-declare is punishable by a £1000 fine and criminal prosecution if you're involved in an accident and haven't self-declared so it's hardly 'voluntary'