AIBU to ask if anyone cares? (Passports)

[Revertion]

I'm posting here rather than in the CV board because I don't think this is actually about the virus anymore.

We all saw it coming, some earlier than others, but it's coming on the 1st of October.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/covid-19-vaccine-passports-required-in-scotland-for-entry-to-large-venues-from-1-october-12403321

https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-mandatory-vaccine-certification/

Honestly I could weep. And I can say that as someone who this plan, in it's current iteration at least, is not going to affect in any way.

But this is setting a precedent. An unprecedented change to our way of life and it has happened without being mentioned on any manifesto, without public consultation, and without clear plans, scopes, limitations and exemptions having been finalised.

It’s saying that in this country, we can limit your daily life based on your perceived health status and we can measure that perceived health status any way we choose to and we don’t need to provide any scientific reasoning, justification, or evidence that there is a need for it or benefits to it.

That is without getting into details about human rights, valid exemptions, and the blinding issue of an end date being based on ministers (not medics or experts) consideration on preventing spread of CV, when the very same plan says, regarding negative testing as an alternative, that it is not considered appropriate because it would undermine one of the main aims which is to encourage vaccination.

So the scope of the plan is not even aligned with the aim.

That is the precedent we are setting here and it is coming from a government who are attempting to make emergency powers permanent (subject to public consultation - for which there is already a CLEAR PRECEDENT of this government entirely disregarding on other issues).

Yes, yes, slippery slopes are a fallacy and all that. But can we call it that when the top of the slope isn't ethically or morally 'correct' and you don't have to make too many logical distinctions or conclusions before you get to the bottom?

AIBU to think this has the potential to be dangerous?

And, specifically if you are in Scotland or follow Scottish politics, AIBU to think the current government really have no line when it comes to their reach into personal lives and freedoms?

(This is coming straight off the back off their attempts to make emergency powers permanent, the 4 year olds can change gender, the thoughts can be a hate crime, etc. Where does it end?).

I'm really having a 'final nail in the coffin' moment this morning. Feel utterly powerless. BUT prepared to be told I'm unreasonable because I'm apparently also a masochist....

I don't think they should make passports a requirement until they can cope with people who had vacation in England or ( even worse) England and Scotland

@wheresmymojo re compulsory smallpox vaccine...

Had you been alive at the time you would have been arguing against the compulsory vaccine presumably?

The 1850s? Did we even have freedom over bodies or even the right to vote then? I think I'd maybe be more cornered with my rapist husband and the fact I had practically no access to higher education. Or the threat of the workhouse.

Also...

Ordinary type-confluent is fatal about 50–75% of the time, ordinary-type semi-confluent about 25–50% of the time, in cases where the rash is discrete the case-fatality rate is less than 10%. The overall fatality rate for children younger than 1 year of age is 40–50%. Hemorrhagic and flat types have the highest fatality rates. The fatality rate for flat or late hemorrhagic type smallpox is 90% or greater and nearly 100% is observed in cases of early hemorrhagic smallpox.

What is Covid? It's hardly possible to know considering the definition of 'infected' has changed meaning. Positive test? Test + symptoms i.e a case?

0.15%? It is certainly not even 10% and thus no way comparable to smallpox or the bill in the 1850s.

I also find it weird that if 3 years ago someone had told you there was going to be a pandemic that killed millions of people that your mind wouldn't stretch to the thought of there being various tactics employed to encourage vaccination - some carrots, some sticks.

That seems a bit short sighted especially given the history of the compulsory smallpox vaccine.

You are going straight for smallpox and glossing over the 1957 and 1967 epidemics?

Do you have a valid reason for that

Have the govt gave a timescale for how long these passports will be in place for?

Im double jabbed but won't be getting a booster - will that mean after a certain date my 'passport' won't be valid?

No wonder the govt was using behavioural scientists when this started. They probably can't believe how well the fear tactics have worked.

Reminds me of Naomi Klein's 'The Shock Doctrine.' I am stunned at how easily people are willing to accept anything with the illusory promise of freedom / normality. Give up your freedoms for what? Proof of a negative test would surely be much more effective, given that so many +cases in the double jabbed are asymptomatic. So, one has to wonder what else is behind the vaccine passports?

@forinborin

To go to your local night club or large event? Yes very much a new thing A new thing in the UK.

To go to a public swimming pool in my home country, I need to bring a doctors note that I don't have a communicable disease that can be transmitted through water (a standard check at your GP). University application pack includes a medical form too. Also see my point above - if your children are unvaccinated by choice, you can't send your children to state sponsored nurseries (different with schools as the need for education trumps the public health concern).

Well OK - this is a bit on the extreme side perhaps, but my point was that it is probably the UK that is an outlier worldwide here.

But we are debating about the uk here.

The government can't agree on what constitutes a nightclub. Eg a pub with a late licence and has live music - is that exempt? Or included? Alcohol licences currently don't specify the type of establishment so how will that work?

Large sports grounds - do they need to restrict numbers to 9,999 and not require evidence of a vaccine passport? Or in the case of the Scottish premier league some grounds will need it and some won't.

What about big outdoor events such as fireworks? Not ticketed, and where I am free. Yet attracts thousands of people in a small area.

My favourite (and not for personal reasons ) is sexual entertainment venues. Don't need to prove you don't have any sti's but need to prove you have been vaccinated for covid.

And for me that's the crux. Being vaccinated does not equal not being positive. Vaccinated people can catch covid. And can also transmit it to others. All this does is breed a false sense of security.

How long does the passport last, given that the vaccine wains in time?

@Idyllic

You might be interested in the book Sate of Fear by Laura Dodsworth.....

How long before you need to show your passport to enter a hospital, dentist or supermarket?

@Josette77

This is about protecting the vulnerable and I support it.

If it is to protect the vulnerable, then surely as it’s been shown that the viral load, catching etc is the same regardless of injection status then testing is the best way to protect them.

What happens if somebody who has had both injections catches the virus and then spreads it around?

But we are debating about the uk here.
Sure, and all points you make further are also all valid. I am not sure how efficient this measure will be either. I was just pointing out that it is not exceptionally unusual, and not necessarily a slippery slope to a dictatorship as some posters seem to imply.

I'm totally against it.

Nightclubs & large events have been running for months - what do the Govm think is going to change on a particular date?

Vaccinated and unvaccinated can catch and transmit Covid so what exactly is the point?

don't the people who work in these venues have rights then?

Do they have to accept people who won't be vaccinated putting their lives and livelihoods at risk?

People can survive not going to venues, therefore they don't need a passport or a vaccine. they still have a choice.

"Vaccine passports are nothing to do with risks though, because the vaccinated can still pass the virus on just as the unvaccinated can. As an unvaccinated person I'm happy to do tests to prove I am not unwell. Accepting vaccinated people who have not tested into crowded venues because passport says so is nothing to do with actual public health."

" People who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons will be treated as vaccinated. People who have chosen not to be vaccinated for their own reasons are outcast but it's still two unvaccinated people so there should be no differences."

Agree with both of these.

It doesn't make sense.

The people who work in these venues have the right to have potential exposure to the virus minimised, and a negative test would be of more value than simply being able to state that you're vaccinated. Because both vaccinated and unvaccinated can catch and transmit the virus, and the passports are a danger in that some may believe their sniffle can't possibly be Covid because it's so mild......but they're vaccinated so they can't be a risk.

I support it, but I also don't have a problem with everyone carrying ID cards. I think people who could get vaccinated but choose not to are selfish idiots.

@Josette77

This is about protecting the vulnerable and I support it.

Yes.

The people who work in these venues have the right to have potential exposure to the virus minimised

Most likely, The people who work in these venues have the right to work there & yet be not vaccinated themselves.

So many responses here are based on moral judgement over science and logic.....is it not true that a significant number of the vulnerable are protected by vaccination? This vaccine is designed primarily to reduce symptoms, illness and hospitalisation in the most vulnerable, via their own vaccinated status.

I can't get my head round people being written off as pariahs having led perfectly responsible and benevolent lives because they have declined a medical treatment as is their right.

The people who work in these venues have the right to have potential exposure to the virus minimised

Which would be a valid reason to make entrance based on negative test result?

I'm also not sure how someone who works in a nightclub has any more right than someone who works in a pub?

I have sympathy for people with actual medical reasons not to have the vaccine over this, but beyond that - nope.

Going to large events is not a right and if you CBA to have the vaccine or think you know better than medical science then you don't get to go. Oh well.

@FuckPilledLatteplus

How long before you need to show your passport to enter a hospital, dentist or supermarket?

Never. Obviously.

1958-1977 was the major smallpox vaccine roll-out, one poster saying it's irrelevant to this discussion is a century out in their argument.

Also this 'yes but this is the UK' groups. What is it that is so special about the UK and it's people that they don't think they should do what other developed nations are doing to help stop this worldwide issue? What makes them so special?

If the government were genuinely so concerned for our health, why were nightclubs reopened at all without the requirement of vaccination?

I actually think passports could make the situation worse. Too many people will be utterly complacent; "we've been vaxxed, we're safe", spreading the virus around far more than this time last year. A vaccination pass to get you in anywhere but no testing? Absolutely bonkers!

@Josette77

This is about protecting the vulnerable and I support it.

It isn't. It is a ridiculous overreach of government powers, aimed at forcing people to have the vaccine - if the vaccine were 100% safe and effective that would be fine, but it's neither, so it should always be a choice. And where does it end? Flu vaccine next?

And when will this finish? I read yesterday that vaccine passports are being considered for the Commonwealth Games. That's August!

@forinborin

But we are debating about the uk here. Sure, and all points you make further are also all valid. I am not sure how efficient this measure will be either. I was just pointing out that it is not exceptionally unusual, and not necessarily a slippery slope to a dictatorship as some posters seem to imply.

I'm just not so sure I trust this government not to make it a slippery slope. There is very little this government have done recently that I can get on board with and it makes me worry about long term future. To be honest the covid passport is just another nail in the coffin.

Rules are far more likely to be followed if they are clear and have a valid purpose. These rules appear to be neither clear or have valid purpose.

I do wonder how long it will be before the first legal case challenges this rule. After all it won't be the first legal challenge the Scottish government has faced over covid rules.

@MistressoftheDarkSide

So many responses here are based on moral judgement over science and logic.....is it not true that a significant number of the vulnerable are protected by vaccination? This vaccine is designed primarily to reduce symptoms, illness and hospitalisation in the most vulnerable, via their own vaccinated status.

I can't get my head round people being written off as pariahs having led perfectly responsible and benevolent lives because they have declined a medical treatment as is their right.

Vulnerable people (however you want to define it) have the same rights to work,social and be in public as anyone else. Someone choosing not to protect themselves or vulnerable people is of course able to make that choice but it comes with consequences. If you've opted out you accept you don't have everything you want. Rights,responsibilities,actions,consequences, it's not all about you. Stuff primary school children learn.

If the true goal is to prevent spread, then negative tests are the most logical path. My DIL works in a big chain and is vaccinated, but also has to do LFTs every three days or so provided by her employers. She caught Covid at work at Christmas, before she was vaccinated. None of us were at that point. She had probably been infectious for a considerable period before her positive test came back, so we'd been in relatively close contact. None of us caught it then. When I and my double vaxxed DP caught it from our double vaxxed friend we'd spent four hours in our big well ventilated kitchen with her. It's a lottery to be honest but if measures are in place I'd like them to be somewhat logic and science driven, not just lip service giving the smug a stick to beat others with.