AIBU to ask if anyone cares? (Passports)

[Revertion]

I'm posting here rather than in the CV board because I don't think this is actually about the virus anymore.

We all saw it coming, some earlier than others, but it's coming on the 1st of October.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/covid-19-vaccine-passports-required-in-scotland-for-entry-to-large-venues-from-1-october-12403321

https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-mandatory-vaccine-certification/

Honestly I could weep. And I can say that as someone who this plan, in it's current iteration at least, is not going to affect in any way.

But this is setting a precedent. An unprecedented change to our way of life and it has happened without being mentioned on any manifesto, without public consultation, and without clear plans, scopes, limitations and exemptions having been finalised.

It’s saying that in this country, we can limit your daily life based on your perceived health status and we can measure that perceived health status any way we choose to and we don’t need to provide any scientific reasoning, justification, or evidence that there is a need for it or benefits to it.

That is without getting into details about human rights, valid exemptions, and the blinding issue of an end date being based on ministers (not medics or experts) consideration on preventing spread of CV, when the very same plan says, regarding negative testing as an alternative, that it is not considered appropriate because it would undermine one of the main aims which is to encourage vaccination.

So the scope of the plan is not even aligned with the aim.

That is the precedent we are setting here and it is coming from a government who are attempting to make emergency powers permanent (subject to public consultation - for which there is already a CLEAR PRECEDENT of this government entirely disregarding on other issues).

Yes, yes, slippery slopes are a fallacy and all that. But can we call it that when the top of the slope isn't ethically or morally 'correct' and you don't have to make too many logical distinctions or conclusions before you get to the bottom?

AIBU to think this has the potential to be dangerous?

And, specifically if you are in Scotland or follow Scottish politics, AIBU to think the current government really have no line when it comes to their reach into personal lives and freedoms?

(This is coming straight off the back off their attempts to make emergency powers permanent, the 4 year olds can change gender, the thoughts can be a hate crime, etc. Where does it end?).

I'm really having a 'final nail in the coffin' moment this morning. Feel utterly powerless. BUT prepared to be told I'm unreasonable because I'm apparently also a masochist....

@RuggerHug

1958-1977 was the major smallpox vaccine roll-out, one poster saying it's irrelevant to this discussion is a century out in their argument.

Also this 'yes but this is the UK' groups. What is it that is so special about the UK and it's people that they don't think they should do what other developed nations are doing to help stop this worldwide issue? What makes them so special?

Vaccine scepticism is lower in the UK than other countries so maybe we don't need this coercion - not that I agree with it anywhere.

Plus the fact the vaccine is not 100% effective so what is the point of coercing people to have it?

People have died after having this vaccine. That is a fact. Therefore people should have the choice as to whether to have it. Personally I thought the risk of the illness as greater, but that was MY choice.

Get the vaccine yourself and stop worrying about other people. Their health choices are no business of yours.

If the true goal is to prevent spread, then negative tests are the most logical path

but then you need a test that actually works - and quickly. Not tests that only work about 5-10 days after you've been infected.

@MistressoftheDarkSide

The people who work in these venues have the right to have potential exposure to the virus minimised, and a negative test would be of more value than simply being able to state that you're vaccinated. Because both vaccinated and unvaccinated can catch and transmit the virus, and the passports are a danger in that some may believe their sniffle can't possibly be Covid because it's so mild......but they're vaccinated so they can't be a risk.

Totally agree!

Yes, I said up thread that more efficient tests should be worked on..... but we have to work with what we've got I suppose.....

LFTs are not very efficient. PCRs are a bit better but they cost £40 each. Ok, let’s bring down the cost to £20. If you take one of these every 48 hours (you should do one every 24h tbh to be even more ‘safe’), that’s £300 per person per month. Granted, not everyone will need them every 48 hours, but it’s still a huge amount of money on testing the general population all the time. Who pays for this? It’s not like the government has extra money lying around for this.

The government appears to have plenty of money to pay for PR campaigns, contracts with biometric firms looking at vaccine passports and the like.....just saying.

@EileenGC

LFTs are not very efficient. PCRs are a bit better but they cost £40 each. Ok, let’s bring down the cost to £20. If you take one of these every 48 hours (you should do one every 24h tbh to be even more ‘safe’), that’s £300 per person per month. Granted, not everyone will need them every 48 hours, but it’s still a huge amount of money on testing the general population all the time. Who pays for this? It’s not like the government has extra money lying around for this.

This is why I've thought if you want to refuse a vaccine and go with testing to go to work or wherever, fine. But you pay for them yourself. Also, if it was someone working for me you need the result in time to start work at the time you're meant to. You don't walk in at 9, take a test and wait for the results before you start work. You have it done and ready beforehand.

www.governmentcomputing.com/data-protection-ethics/comment/digital-vaccine-passports-will-not-work-alone/

inews.co.uk/news/politics/vaccine-passports-contracts-government-covid-two-years-2023-1127579

I agree with you, OP.

Look at what we gave here where I live. We’ve gone from “3 weeks to flatten the curve” (we were always told 3 weeks here, I know other countries said two weeks) to “3 shots to keep your job”.

I work entirely from hone. Have gone for years, it’s not just a COVID thing. The office is over 150 miles away. I don’t come into contact with any customers or even my other colleagues. My colleagues live between 75 and 3200 miles from me as we are scattered all over the country.

I refuse to have to prove to my boss what medical choices I have made that do not impact on my ability to do the job or have any effect on the health of my colleagues. I can understand random drug testing. I can understand if you operate machinery or drive for a job that the company needs to know if you’ve been prescribed something that could impair your ability. But not this.

I’m not against people having the vaccine. I’m not anti-vax. I am pro-consent. I am against the government forcing me to reveal my vaccine status to my employer and where this will lead. People make certain choices in life. That’s their business. I’m not going to reveal my vaccine status to my boss because it’s none of her business. Just as it’s none of her business whether or not I smoke, have had an abortion, follow a vegan diet, take vitamin supplements, have my appendix still, have reached menopause, etc.

I’m not against people having the vaccine. I’m not anti-vax. I am pro-consent. I am against the government forcing me to reveal my vaccine status to my employer and where this will lead. People make certain choices in life. That’s their business. I’m not going to reveal my vaccine status to my boss because it’s none of her business. Just as it’s none of her business whether or not I smoke, have had an abortion, follow a vegan diet, take vitamin supplements, have my appendix still, have reached menopause, etc.

I think not EVERY job should demand it, but some do and rightly so. Because being vegan or having had an abortion doesn’t make you a potential virus ‘transmitter’ when you’re around your colleagues.

I work with over 100 people in a small confined space, the nature of our job doesn’t allow for social distancing (performing arts - we didn’t even distance during lockdowns, the industry was open throughout where I live).

Most of us also freelance on top of our main jobs, teach young people, etc. This week I’ve worked at 5 different venues, with 3 different teams of people, on top of the normal 120ish I come in contact with at my main job on a daily basis.

I don’t see why you’d need to tell your boss your vaccination status - you work from home, alone.

I do see why my job has asked us to declare our vaccine status - because we need to keep these businesses open and ensure our hundreds of colleagues are able to continue working even when there’s a positive case in the company.

Btw they haven’t made it compulsory to disclose this information. There’s an alternative if you don’t want to say. We have been kindly invited to schedule and pay for 3 PCR tests a week ourselves. The results need to be in 12 hours before each work session, you report the results to a specific person in the office first, they authorise you to enter the building the morning after. Funnily enough, everyone I know of has disclosed their status. Those not vaccinated will have testing arranged for by the company, the rest of us are free to come and go as we please.

I have sympathy for people with actual medical reasons not to have the vaccine over this, but beyond that - nope.

I just watched on the news a HCP categorically stating that there is no medical need to not be vaccinated

Everyone (of legal age) can have one, apparently. Those with previous reactions should receive theirs at hospital.

Fake news? True truth? Who knows! The gov proposal has a section on medical exemption (though no actual info)... news saying otherwise.

How long before you need to show your passport to enter a hospital, dentist or supermarket?

Never. Obviously.

You would really really think so. However watching them debate the UK equivalent in Westminster MP asked them to categorically confirm that it would not be implemented in any setting when your attendance is unavoidable.

Surely the last two years have proven that is not actually very many settings? So it's not that confidence inspiriting that this isn't a slippery slope.

And even if we forget the wording, he didn't anyway. He didn't even give a politician's double speak version of no.

In the process of parliamentary engagement and scrutiny we'll be able to share the detail of that in due course

So it would appear what is obvious in some (arguably rational) people's heads it not obvious at all in our government's.

Vaccine scepticism is lower in the UK than other countries so maybe we don't need this coercion - not that I agree with it anywhere.

Exactly - that’s what I don’t really get. I believe around 90% of adults have had one jab (which presumably means that in a few weeks around 90% will be fully vaccinated). I’m no expert but that seems really high to me and it’s certainly higher than initial estimates. We’re on a whole a pretty compliant nation of people - I remember reading that compliance with lockdown measures was actually vastly higher than the government’s behavioural scientists estimated it would be.

So I just don’t really understand the need for it and I don’t understand what it achieves. If 10% of people won’t or can’t have the vaccine does it matter?

@YouMeandtheSpew

Vaccine scepticism is lower in the UK than other countries so maybe we don't need this coercion - not that I agree with it anywhere.

Exactly - that’s what I don’t really get. I believe around 90% of adults have had one jab (which presumably means that in a few weeks around 90% will be fully vaccinated). I’m no expert but that seems really high to me and it’s certainly higher than initial estimates. We’re on a whole a pretty compliant nation of people - I remember reading that compliance with lockdown measures was actually vastly higher than the government’s behavioural scientists estimated it would be.

So I just don’t really understand the need for it and I don’t understand what it achieves. If 10% of people won’t or can’t have the vaccine does it matter?

Agreed.

The stats show a breakdown of vaccinations by age group. Today the show:
61% of 16 -17 year olds have had first dose
75% of 18-29 year olds have had first dose with 58% have had both
83% of 30-39 year olds have had first dose with 73% having had both
91% of 40-49 year olds have had one dose and 85% have had both
98% of 50-59 year olds have had first dose and 95% have had both
60 and older are sitting at 100% for both

Given the vaccination program has only really started for 16-17 year olds I think the figures are high for all age groups.

On that basis, who are they really encouraging with covid passports?

I agree with the points re. Vaccine uptake being high particularly when it comes to the high risk groups so what is the point of them? I doubt it will persuade those that have not taken up the offer yet if anything it will entrench their views. If you go to the theatre like I did last week, it was full of 50 year olds plus, so on the data we have almost everyone there was doubled jabbed.
And yes you can catch Covid anyway double jabbed so again what is the benefit?

@BoredZelda

I’m all for it. Are the people whining about this, the same ones who have been moaning about lockdowns and how we need to get back to normal and open everything back up? How exactly did people think that could be achieved, without making vaccination a prerequisite for group gatherings? They have used the carrot for 9 months to get people vaccinated, and now comes the stick for the last few people who need to get us over the line to have a protected society.

My only issue is, how does this apply to those who cannot be vaccinated? I haven’t looked too closely but is there an exemption in place for kids or those with a medical reason they cannot be vaccinated. I’d hope that is there (or will come). I’d hate to think people who can’t are losing out because of the selfish actions of those who won’t.

We are back to normal though?

I agree with you OP

As an aside ds2 is unable to get the vaccine passport on his phone, the helpline is next to useless and I can’t see another way of getting it

Oh dear, never mind. If you want to go somewhere get vaccinated, simple as that

It’s to protect everyone

It's no different to venues in Germany requesting proof of double vaccs on entry apart from one thing: there, if you aren't vaccinated, you can do stuff by having a lateral negative test that day before entering.
I suspect that caveat is only due to the larger rollout meaning not everyone is vaccinated yet.

@BoredZelda

Presumably the vaccine ppt in the UK will work like the EU one. You get it if vaccinated, or have negative tested within a certain timeframe or have a recovered from Covid cert from your doctor.
So the very tiny percentage of people who are medically unable to be vaccinated will simply do a test.
It's the way the EU Green Pass works anyway. They're now offering free tests in some EU countries for those unable to be vaccinated. Tests here are cheap anyway and subsidized. It was in the news yesterday that the subsidized test won't be available to those who have chosen not to be vaccinated.

@YouMeandtheSpew

Vaccine scepticism is lower in the UK than other countries so maybe we don't need this coercion - not that I agree with it anywhere.

Exactly - that’s what I don’t really get. I believe around 90% of adults have had one jab (which presumably means that in a few weeks around 90% will be fully vaccinated). I’m no expert but that seems really high to me and it’s certainly higher than initial estimates. We’re on a whole a pretty compliant nation of people - I remember reading that compliance with lockdown measures was actually vastly higher than the government’s behavioural scientists estimated it would be.

So I just don’t really understand the need for it and I don’t understand what it achieves. If 10% of people won’t or can’t have the vaccine does it matter?

UK fully vaccinated just over 60%, one dose 71% according to ourworldindata yesterday.

Sorry forgot screenshot

Already happened in Ireland.
No indoor dining or bars without vaccine passport.
I'm vaccinated so okay, it has made some people feel forced into taking it.

@Geamhradh

Yes I think those figures are for the population as a whole and the figures I gave are for the adult population (higher in the very vulnerable groups) as per the figures @tigger1001 shared.