AIBU to ask if anyone cares? (Passports)

[Revertion]

I'm posting here rather than in the CV board because I don't think this is actually about the virus anymore.

We all saw it coming, some earlier than others, but it's coming on the 1st of October.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/covid-19-vaccine-passports-required-in-scotland-for-entry-to-large-venues-from-1-october-12403321

https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-mandatory-vaccine-certification/

Honestly I could weep. And I can say that as someone who this plan, in it's current iteration at least, is not going to affect in any way.

But this is setting a precedent. An unprecedented change to our way of life and it has happened without being mentioned on any manifesto, without public consultation, and without clear plans, scopes, limitations and exemptions having been finalised.

It’s saying that in this country, we can limit your daily life based on your perceived health status and we can measure that perceived health status any way we choose to and we don’t need to provide any scientific reasoning, justification, or evidence that there is a need for it or benefits to it.

That is without getting into details about human rights, valid exemptions, and the blinding issue of an end date being based on ministers (not medics or experts) consideration on preventing spread of CV, when the very same plan says, regarding negative testing as an alternative, that it is not considered appropriate because it would undermine one of the main aims which is to encourage vaccination.

So the scope of the plan is not even aligned with the aim.

That is the precedent we are setting here and it is coming from a government who are attempting to make emergency powers permanent (subject to public consultation - for which there is already a CLEAR PRECEDENT of this government entirely disregarding on other issues).

Yes, yes, slippery slopes are a fallacy and all that. But can we call it that when the top of the slope isn't ethically or morally 'correct' and you don't have to make too many logical distinctions or conclusions before you get to the bottom?

AIBU to think this has the potential to be dangerous?

And, specifically if you are in Scotland or follow Scottish politics, AIBU to think the current government really have no line when it comes to their reach into personal lives and freedoms?

(This is coming straight off the back off their attempts to make emergency powers permanent, the 4 year olds can change gender, the thoughts can be a hate crime, etc. Where does it end?).

I'm really having a 'final nail in the coffin' moment this morning. Feel utterly powerless. BUT prepared to be told I'm unreasonable because I'm apparently also a masochist....

@Revertion

Do you think you should be allowed pay cash for a plane ticket and walk on without going through security? No passport, no checks? If so then you have a point but if you agree with passports and safety and security checks then you really have nothing to complain about.

Same logical fallacy as the DVLA medical checks, imo.

We are checking that person for the actual thing that might cause harm to others.

Do they have a weapon or anything that could endanger other passengers?

We are not blanket banning entire demographics based on perception of risk and no logic applied, as is the case with unvaccinated but prior infection.

If a parent or carer is carrying formula in liquid form, the formula is tested.

We are not allowing parents and carers (those with valid exemptions to travel with liquids) on the plane anyway because they have a valid exemption.

I think there is a valid point about i.e USA on the whole does not let convicted criminals from the UK enter. But that is a foreign country, not domestic, and the domestic side of that argument - citizenship deprivation - like this, set a precedent and still highly controversial.

"“It could be seen as an abdication of responsibility to remove citizenship from someone who was radicalised in our country, who left when she was a child, and who we are relatively well-equipped to deal with, whether by prosecution or deradicalisation.”

This is wholly valid for those not vaccinated, and even more so. The unvaccinated didn't cause this, it was either nature or a lab on the other side of the world and subsequent mismanagement. If they are not vaccinated there will be a reason and the vast majority of those reasons will be due to distrust in the government (with their policy of fear, gaslighting and noble lies) mistrust in pharma (with their history of profit over consequences) or distrust in the technology (which has never been seen on this scale before and could be avoided by focusing resources on expediency of Novavax EUA, for example).

And we are relatively well-equipped to deal with the risks and consequences i.e 90% are vaccinated, the disease does not have a high fatality rate, we can test for infection, those at higher risk can take precautions.

You are very close to getting what my point was.

Where I live vaccine passports are up and running. The effect has been that many people who couldn’t be arsed or who were dithering about vaccination have got themselves jabbed. If you can’t/don’t want to get vaccinated you have the option of taking a test on the day and presented a negative result. Personally I’d rather do this than have another lockdown (those who don’t want to can effectively lock themselves down by staying away from anywhere that requires the passport). You need to present certification for loads of things - driving a car, proving your age, criminal record check - this is just another thing. What’s the alternative? Locking down again? Closing schools? Shutting businesses? How else can we live with the virus? I don’t doubt there are some people who are quite happy to stay at home, work from home, have all their shopping delivered and never go out again, but not everyone has that option or even wants to take that option. The vaccine passport - far from being an imposition - gives everyone a choice.

I’m all for it. Are the people whining about this, the same ones who have been moaning about lockdowns and how we need to get back to normal and open everything back up? How exactly did people think that could be achieved, without making vaccination a prerequisite for group gatherings? They have used the carrot for 9 months to get people vaccinated, and now comes the stick for the last few people who need to get us over the line to have a protected society.

My only issue is, how does this apply to those who cannot be vaccinated? I haven’t looked too closely but is there an exemption in place for kids or those with a medical reason they cannot be vaccinated. I’d hope that is there (or will come). I’d hate to think people who can’t are losing out because of the selfish actions of those who won’t.

I'm not sure about the passports. We already have to show proof of vaccination to enter some countries.

Re civil liberties, they were thrown under the bus at the start when for example, I could sit with my mum outside a cafe but not in her garden.

@ManifestDestinee I don't agree with that though which is the point I was making. I don't think it's right to restrict things like night clubs etc where you've always been able to go, now suddenly because you don't want a vaccine you're no longer allowed to do that - as PP said, people with both vaccines can be really ill with covid but still allowed in to then spread around, tests are more effective for stopping the spread than passports imo

YANBU at all op. We are running blindly on to a very slippery and dangerous slope.

@PersonaNonGarter

It’s ridiculous. I am sick as a dog with coronavirus right now. But I could get into allllll the nightclubs because I am double vaccinated.

And all the double vaccinated clubbers could get sick as dogs too. And then - off work, pressure on NHS etc. So what was the point of the passports..?

And that’s what makes the passport pointless

[quote Lou98]@ManifestDestinee I don't agree with that though which is the point I was making. I don't think it's right to restrict things like night clubs etc where you've always been able to go, now suddenly because you don't want a vaccine you're no longer allowed to do that - as PP said, people with both vaccines can be really ill with covid but still allowed in to then spread around, tests are more effective for stopping the spread than passports imo[/quote]
You're making my point for me. You think that someone has just stopped you going to nightclubs for no good reason, because you won't take the vaccine.
That's very silly. The pandemic has stopped you. The risks have stopped you. The vaccine and the paperwork is intended to give you back what the pandemic took...if you don't want it., don't have it, but for gods sake stop whining about it.

Doesn't bother me I'm afraid. We're at war with the Pandemic and during a war extraordinary things have to happen.

@ManifestDestinee haha as I said - I've had both vaccines so that's irrelevant - I'm off to a nightclub next weekend!

It's not moaning to have a different opinion to you, as much as it is you moaning about people not having the vaccine.

I respect people's opinions for choosing whether to have it or not have it - I just feel it should be the same choice as every other vaccine. It's fine that you don't agree, doesn't change my mind though

As a third party national from many countries around the world, to get into the UK you have to pass a TB scan before you are allowed to cross the border. I still remember waiting for my scan a decade ago at the airport, feeling incredibly anxious.
Other countries demand to be HIV clear before you are admitted in. Yes, even in the EU.
It is not like it is a new thing.

Vaccine passports are nothing to do with risks though, because the vaccinated can still pass the virus on just as the unvaccinated can. As an unvaccinated person I'm happy to do tests to prove I am not unwell. Accepting vaccinated people who have not tested into crowded venues because passport says so is nothing to do with actual public health.

It's bloody frightening. I take comfort in the fact that at least I'm aware where this could lead to.

People who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons will be treated as vaccinated. People who have chosen not to be vaccinated for their own reasons are outcast but it's still two unvaccinated people so there should be no differences.

But hasn't this been a thing for a while. A friend went to India and needed jabs. I went to Tanzania and had malaria tablets and certain jabs another friend went to Peru and again needed certain vaccines and medication. Likewise for a friend who visited Pakistan.

Surely this has always been a thing we're just noticing it now because it's closer to home? I'm happy to be corrected btw it's just the aforementioned is the reason why so far I haven't been able to get worked up about it.

@MotherAbigail

It is absolutely despicable and discriminatory. I was all for vaccines, and have both myself, but this is the immoral top of a dangerous slope into a police state.

It will be interesting at what point it’s supporters draw their line in the sand when more and more places are included (and they will be) and more and more medical procedures and information (inevitable).

Other vaccinations, bmi, levels of alcohol consumption, smoking, etc.?

Why do we need so much state control and intervention in our lives?

The vulnerable are protected by their own vaccination status.

Exactly this.

I am fully vaccinated, but the right to voluntarily put something into your body should not be taken away by back door policies.

As someone who has had both vaccines, I couldn't care less and fully support it

@ohfook

But hasn't this been a thing for a while. A friend went to India and needed jabs. I went to Tanzania and had malaria tablets and certain jabs another friend went to Peru and again needed certain vaccines and medication. Likewise for a friend who visited Pakistan.

Surely this has always been a thing we're just noticing it now because it's closer to home? I'm happy to be corrected btw it's just the aforementioned is the reason why so far I haven't been able to get worked up about it.

You are right. It is quite common. I guess just unusual for the UK. There are countries where you cannot use state sponsored childcare if your children are unvaccinated by choice. And they are not totalitarian dictatorships at all. I'd actually support similar norms in the UK, after watching a close friend's baby daughter being very very ill with measles, with encephalitis suspected at one point - too young for an MMR jab, caught it in a nursery.

@forinborin

As a third party national from many countries around the world, to get into the UK you have to pass a TB scan before you are allowed to cross the border. I still remember waiting for my scan a decade ago at the airport, feeling incredibly anxious. Other countries demand to be HIV clear before you are admitted in. Yes, even in the EU. It is not like it is a new thing.

To travel, I agree not a new thing.

To go to your local night club or large event? Yes very much a new thing

I can't get worked up about it. Both DH and I are double vaxxed, and so will DD be after next weekend.

To go to your local night club or large event? Yes very much a new thing
A new thing in the UK.

To go to a public swimming pool in my home country, I need to bring a doctors note that I don't have a communicable disease that can be transmitted through water (a standard check at your GP). University application pack includes a medical form too. Also see my point above - if your children are unvaccinated by choice, you can't send your children to state sponsored nurseries (different with schools as the need for education trumps the public health concern).

Well OK - this is a bit on the extreme side perhaps, but my point was that it is probably the UK that is an outlier worldwide here.

@LakieLady

*Doesn't bother me in the slightest, and if it encourages people who wouldn't otherwise get vaccinated, I think it's a positive thing.

People who can get vaccinated but won't are jeopardising the health of those who can't be vaccinated. I think they're selfish fuckers, frankly.*

Yes I agree with sentiment, if not the exact wording. I think those who are working themselves up into a mess about the ramifications of a police state are overreacting TBH. We always knew they would introduce vaccine passports at some point in time, and so they should.

As a pose to dreaming up half-baked notions of a fascist regime think about this move in the context of what it's supposed to do (stop those who haven't been jabbed from mingling with many others in large settings and potentially giving large numbers of people Coronavirus.) Then it makes perfect sense.

I suspect you're right about it being inevitable, and I also strongly suspect that it will come in in the rest of the country. But I don't think the government has much choice, given the current figures and, in particular, the fact that the NHS is already starting to be overwhelmed by Covid cases including a hefty proportion which are directly or indirectly the result of people not being vaccinated. The alternative would be another lockdown just to try to give the NHS some breathing space and keep some services for non-Covid cases, and that is even less acceptable.

Why the assumption that unvaccinated people are more likely to spread it though, especially when it's clear the vaccinated are also catching it from the vaccinated? You have to have the virus to pass it on. Having a passport means very little. Tests are a better measure of transmission.

@wheresmymojo

When ID cards were under consideration here we got the same argument 'ID cards today...what next?'

ID cards have been in place on the continent now for a long time...what sinister scheme has it ended in? Nothing.

We had similar around CCTV. What sinister scheme has that ended in? Nothing.

Going even further back when passports were introduced the exact same anxieties were expressed then, what sinister plot has this come to? Nothing.

If you go back to Victorian times there were the same concerns and anti-vax protests against the compulsory smallpox vaccine. What sinister ending did that have? Nothing

Would people on this thread have preferred that there hadn't been compulsory vaccines against smallpox? I'm genuinely interested in that...

regarding ID cards - I live in a generally liberal country in Europe where ID cards are compulsory. This has not really impacted me at all - Its in my purse when I am out and about but I have never been stopped and specifically asked to show it by the police (except when I lost my tram ticket and was being fined in which case fair enough). Except.... My partner HAS been stopped by the police and asked for it several times including one time when he was out for a run and didn't have it (because he was "out for a run"). He wasn't actually arrested rather he was asked to come to the police station voluntarily as an alternative to being arrested while they check he wasnt an illegal immigrant. It all worked out fine (but he was about 3 hours late getting home and I was super worried). We will, I am sure, never know WHY he seems to be stopped so frequently but, Covid passports aside, I am a little bit wary of the whole "minor inconvenience" "what do you have to fear arguments" around ID cards etc. If we lived in a truly equal unprejudiced society they might hold some water but alas we don't.

I am fully vaccinated, but the right to voluntarily put something into your body should not be taken away by back door policies.
But it is not... surely attending a night club is not actually a human right?

You can be barred from many non-essential activities based on your health situation. I think this is just another of them.
Having said that, I am equally unpleasantly surprised by the number of people frothing at the mouth about the great unvaccinated. It is everyone's personal decision. In the ideal world the full consequences of that decision would have been known well in advance but hey, it is an evolving situation.