AIBU about people who say ‘they worked hard to get to where they are’?

[MessyMissyMe]

Generally these are highly paid people who were able to go to University (support from parents/inherited intellect/confidence and self belief built up by secure, happy childhood) or had the resources to start their own business and were lucky enough to get remunerated by employment that they enjoyed and were good at, didn’t have outside influences or stressors that made things harder/took up time they needed to study or build a career.

They basically are just LUCKY and don’t deserve their success anymore than a cleaner or a care worker living hand to mouth in social housing deserves their lack of.

AIBU to get annoyed at people who say this?

I think there are a huge amount of variables affecting how successful someone becomes (not to mention that defining success by status/wealth is also open to question).

I wouldn't estimate the impact of hard work when it comes to capitalising on opportunity, but I've been round long enough to see that an absence of luck can override a huge amount of hard work. Life isn't fair.

Personally, I like to define success by personal happiness in which relationships with others feature very highly. I love my best friend and she me not because of jobs, houses, salaries or achievements but because we genuinely enjoy being together, never feel judged, and know we've hot each others backs. That friendship was forged at a point we both had nothing and frequently made choices between topping up electricity or eating. The fact I now earn a good salary and my life is totally transformed has undoubtedly been influenced by luck probably more than anything, but even with all that luck I still had to work hard. Conversely, even with the hard work, without that luck I'd have probably failed.

Decades ago, I was in FT employment

My friend offered me a job with training in a completely different industry ( I sometimes worked with him at weekends for extra money)

I stayed I'm my original job & I have enjoyed my work. I often wonder, how my life would have worked out, if I had chosen to move & work with my friend.

We remain friends today

Nobody can predict the future

@nokidshere

And yes, it is irritating when people show no appreciation for the privileges that helped them along, and claim its all down to their own hard work.

It's only irritating if you let it be. It has no impact on my life if Jenny down the road thinks she only got where she is because of hard work. I'm unlikely to change her mind and I know it's not true.

No, but perpetuating the myth that hard work (alone) equals success has an impact on people who are not successful as it suggests its their own fault, exacerbating all sorts of harmful stereotypes. If Jenny down the road is racist or homophobic and perpetuates myths linked to these views it has no impact on my life, but I wouldn't like that either.

" It has no impact on my life if Jenny down the road thinks she only got where she is because of hard work. "

It impacts your life if she thinks you're lazy because you're less successful.
A friend's relative is a landlord and he believes all his tenants are feckless because he thinks everyone who doesn't own a house is feckless.

What kind of small risks are we talking?

We talk a lot about her employment situation; she's terribly unhappy at her job (zero hours, only providing part time employment, taking on a labour-intensive second job requiring lots of driving and it's caused her to run several cars into the ground in the time I've known her) but yet won't take a new, full-time position elsewhere for more pay. Nor will she build out the labour-intensive second job into a proper business, though I admit that would be WAY more risky even with her reputation and book of clients.

She's been through the interview process for roles and landed at least three offers that I'm aware of but always turns them down at the last second. She has support from her friends, family, and DH; no DC and even if everything went tits up their situation means they'd never be out on the street.

She keeps telling me I'm so lucky to have the career I do, but won't make any moves to build her own even when they're presented. She comes off as very risk-adverse, which is why I ask the question.

I also find the ones most likely to spout this tend to be middle aged men. Who completely ignore the advantages that alone gave them. Going to school in an era where education opportunities were often very much geared towards boys, building careers in male biased environments, and frequently benefitting from a partner who shouldered most of the domestic and childcare duties to facilitate their ability to 'work their arse off'.

I just can’t understand the people who can’t see this! Yes, you have worked hard to get where you are. BUT you have also been ‘lucky’ or circumstances (not all of them of course) have been in your favour.
And other people less ‘successful’ than you aren’t necessarily lazy!

If someone says he got rich through hard work, ask him whose work.

Who was born in a log cabin that he built himself?

@nokidshere

And yes, it is irritating when people show no appreciation for the privileges that helped them along, and claim its all down to their own hard work.

It's only irritating if you let it be. It has no impact on my life if Jenny down the road thinks she only got where she is because of hard work. I'm unlikely to change her mind and I know it's not true.

I can only speak for myself but it irritates me because it downplays the inequalities in society that have perfectly easy fixes if we choose to pay attention.

What I often see as examples of luck can be traced back to fundamental social inequalities and to deny the element of luck implies that situations can be recreated by anyone in any situation.

Should we accept that women are generally paid less than their counterparts in similar roles because some women have worked ‘hard enough’ to achieve parity of pay or should we question why there is a difference?

"She keeps telling me I'm so lucky to have the career I do, but won't make any moves to build her own even when they're presented. She comes off as very risk-adverse, which is why I ask the question."

Confidence is a big thing, yes, but there's not that much you can do to change your personality. Therapy, I suppose, but then that's expensive and you have to be lucky to find the right therapist for you. I think a lot of our personality is laid down in early childhood.

Lots of people have shared their stories about how hard work and determination set them up but what if you don’t have the time or resources to put in 80 hour weeks or the confidence to take risks or grab opportunities?

Also overcoming adversity to be successful takes luck. being blessed with robust mental health for example, having the intelligence to make the right choices or the self awareness to decide to improve yourself.

OP - I think it’s a massive cop out to say that it’s just luck that people have self-awareness, determination and confidence and this is why they have been successful. These are all personal attributes that can be developed, it’s the fact that people have honed and used these skills, plus the effort taken to get training or an education, that has made them successful.

I understand that people in low paid jobs work hard on a day to day basis (I have done many low paid jobs myself earlier in my life) , but I find I have little sympathy with people who complain about their lack of success without taking any tangible steps to change things. You are responsible for your own life.

what if you don’t have the time or resources to put in 80 hour weeks or the confidence to take risks or grab opportunities?
My DP had both. He still ended up with his GP saying he had to leave his job or he'd end up with a stomach ulcer.
Everyone has problems and pretty much everything in life that looks good has its downside.
You seem to have a chip on your shoulder.

This is interesting. I didn't go to university, and all I got was a six GCSEs.

I'm in an office based engineering / design role, sat on my arse in a comfortable chair, earning a lot more than my step-son as a farmer.

I don't even need to comment on how hard he has to work...

My SIL lived in a rented apartment and lived paycheck to paycheck before meeting my rich BIL. She married him within 2 years of meeting him, they sold his large mortgage free house and bought another, larger, mortgage free house. 100% his money. He has a very nice leased car that he changes every few years (as he always has done). When they first bought the new house they invited us, PIL & other family round for a lunch. She showed us round and continuously said things like "we worked so hard to get here, it just feels so nice" etc. Absolutely bizarre. She also now talks about "their" money and cutting down on holidays as they have just got a new car etc. I don't think she knows we know the house was fully paid with BILs money and the cars are leased through his business. Shes most bizarre and loves to bring up how well THEY have done and humble bragging. Surely she should now be £££ up each month as she no longer pays rent, yet she likes to say how she's now got less money as they are paying things off together that we know they aren't.

(Definitely BILs money as he and DH work together in their business where they see one another's finances openly and DH was advising on the house etc)

You're confusing the fact that many people don't do as well financially despite working very hard with the idea that no-one who has done well can put it down to the fact they have worked especially hard.

I can only speak for myself but it irritates me because it downplays the inequalities in society that have perfectly easy fixes if we choose to pay attention.

What I often see as examples of luck can be traced back to fundamental social inequalities and to deny the element of luck implies that situations can be recreated by anyone in any situation.

Should we accept that women are generally paid less than their counterparts in similar roles because some women have worked ‘hard enough’ to achieve parity of pay or should we question why there is a difference?

Yes to all of this!

@gwenneh

Question for those of you who think it's down to luck -- are you very risk averse by nature?

Research shows us that 'lucky' people are more likely to take risks ( I'm talking career development research here) and that people view lucky people as more likely to take risks - there are a whole load of other attributes which lucky people have in common too.

What has already been alluded to and needs more research is the relationship between what we describe luck or chance and privilege.

I got booted out of home at 15, and worked hard to get my 'A' Levels so I could get the hell out of my hometown and go to Uni (which I did and lived on grants, credit cards and income of three crap jobs (I'm not from a rich family at all), and managed to then get my dream job in London.

That said, I don't have material things, like my own house like many of my middle-class mates do. Being poorer puts you on a back-foot. regardless of how hard you work. I've only at 44 paid off my debts and saved enough for a mortgage. Mates of mine never had debts as parents helped them, and they got a massive hand out to cover deposit and get on property ladder years ago.

Although to say "I got where I am as I worked hard" is something someone who's being defensive would say so probably something from those that got help!

what if you don’t have the time or resources to put in 80 hour weeks or the confidence to take risks or grab opportunities?

Well, then basically that's tough. Life is never, ever going to be fair and it's as simple as that.

You sound very bitter. Be careful what you wish for though. DH lost his Mum, very unexpectedly, last month, they were extremely close. He couldn't take a single day off the whole week after she passed, even though his grieving was so raw. He just couldn't. All the shiny new Range Rovers (yes, he has one) in the world can't cushion you from that.

What about all the people that start at the bottom and work hard to be successful?

Not everyone that goes to uni comes from a safe,stable and needs met home.

I have a very successful friend who's gone far from very humble beginnings with no parental help. He's a rarity though.

Everyone else I know who's well off has had financial help from parents or a wealthy partner, and they're deluded about the advantage it gives them. Example one friend going on about how she left work and started her own business.... How brave! Esp when you have a millionaire husband providing that safety net. Another going on about how she'll always be financially secure because of her wise Investments... Triggered by inheriting a flat in an expensive area of a European city that she then sold to bankroll her investments to the tune of several hundred thousands. We never had a handout and although we own our own home and work hard we never have any slack as we can't save as we never had that lump sum to start with. It has made me bitter in the past but I now just smile wryly about the deluded "hard work" comments.

@RyanReynoldsHusband

Are you saying people who go to university don’t work hard?

You sound extremely bitter.

This. I came from a broken home but put myself through university by winning a scholarship and then working every minute I wasn't studying. Today I run my own business. No I don't think it's all down to luck. It's down to choosing to study when there was little to no encouragement, to not go out but stay in and study or work when others went out partying. To saving every penny when others went out drinking, eating or shopping. So no, I don't think it's down to luck.

No, I don't agree. They might have had more advantages, but it doesn't mean they didn't work hard to get where they are.

@Turkishangora

My cousin is a millionaire because he got gifted 50k to buy a flat in the 90s at 21. He always forgets this though.

This is so weird, how can anyone say another person is just lucky? You know that literally anyone can go to uni? Yes you have to work hard to get there but anyone can go.