AIBU about people who say ‘they worked hard to get to where they are’?

[MessyMissyMe]

Generally these are highly paid people who were able to go to University (support from parents/inherited intellect/confidence and self belief built up by secure, happy childhood) or had the resources to start their own business and were lucky enough to get remunerated by employment that they enjoyed and were good at, didn’t have outside influences or stressors that made things harder/took up time they needed to study or build a career.

They basically are just LUCKY and don’t deserve their success anymore than a cleaner or a care worker living hand to mouth in social housing deserves their lack of.

AIBU to get annoyed at people who say this?

OP, you've gone too far in the other direction. You're right that successful people for whom luck played a significant part in getting them where they are do need to acknowledge that, and not make claims that imply otherwise. But it's entirely possible to be successful through a combination of luck AND hard work, and to say that people in such a position don't deserve it because of the luck portion is just plain silly. There are people who deserve it but don't have it, and there are people who have it and don't deserve it, but you can be the luckiest person alive and still deserve what you have if you worked hard too.

I have had this argument lots of times with people.

I will say this to anyone.

You have a job? A career?
You were lucky to get it.

They will then say
"I worked my arse off to get qualifications, to get the references, get the experience" etc etc etc

But to that I will say,
So did other people applying for the job, but your CV got saved, others got binned. You got an interview you could attend, others didn't. Someone, somewhere decided on you over someone else. So that some one else didn't work as hard as you? Didn't have the qualifications you do? Or were they just unlucky that you got chosen?

There is anythings in this world that can affect your life. Your parents circumstances play a huge role. Your aptitude for remembering what you are taught and your ability to parrot it back. Your personality and confidence levels.
But mixed through our all of that, is huge dollops of luck.

Nobody ever got where they got without luck and plenty of people with the talent and skill got nowhere because of luck.

Life is a massive crapshoot.

I know a lot of people who work in care that wouldn't consider themselves unsuccessful, because the role they provide is so vital or because they are working their way up in a family business. They are very happy with their role.

I know a lot of people in well paid jobs that work long hours and are totally stressed out, their next holiday is the only thing that keeps them going. They worked hard to get where they are but are not very happy in their role.

I think you're whole understanding of luck and success and the importance of happiness is off and that yes YABU. You sound bitter about something.

I agree that some people will always want to frame their bad decisions or lack of effort when compared with others as the other person being 'lucky'.

Many years ago when I was 16, my school didn't have a 6th form. You could either go to FE college, or 6th form at another school. Staying on past 16 was a novelty so no guidance from teachers either way. I decided my prospects were better at 6th form (as the FE college was geared more vocationally), so applied to the best ones in the area. My schoolfriend - we were pretty evenly matched academically, homewise backgrounds were similar although her parents were far better off than mine - went to FE college as she thought it was geeky to go to 6th form with all school rules etc and wanted a free and easy life at college where you could call your teachers by their names etc.

I ended up with better A level grades and a place at Cambridge; she still did well though and got a place at Russell Group uni,. but spent the next 10 years saying I was lucky I had the chance to go to 6th form and chose the A levels I did, and if she'd done the same she would have done as well or better than me. Even though she had exactly the same opportunities and just made different choices!

My Ex is another example. Despite his parents and grandparents owning their own homes, and working in a role where from the age of 21 he was earning £30k+ a year, when I met him 15 years later he lived at home (and always had), had 2k in savings and a car worth £10k. He said I was lucky to know I should buy a house and save money he'd 'never really thought about it' and wished someone had told him to! Except no one told me either - I grew up in a housing assoc property. none of my family owned their homes.

I've met some lazy people who didn't do anything much at all to help themselves get ahead despite having the opportunities, and I've met people who had tough circumstances but excelled despite that. So I don't think you can generalise either way.

@Grenlei

I agree that some people will always want to frame their bad decisions or lack of effort when compared with others as the other person being 'lucky'.

Many years ago when I was 16, my school didn't have a 6th form. You could either go to FE college, or 6th form at another school. Staying on past 16 was a novelty so no guidance from teachers either way. I decided my prospects were better at 6th form (as the FE college was geared more vocationally), so applied to the best ones in the area. My schoolfriend - we were pretty evenly matched academically, homewise backgrounds were similar although her parents were far better off than mine - went to FE college as she thought it was geeky to go to 6th form with all school rules etc and wanted a free and easy life at college where you could call your teachers by their names etc.

I ended up with better A level grades and a place at Cambridge; she still did well though and got a place at Russell Group uni,. but spent the next 10 years saying I was lucky I had the chance to go to 6th form and chose the A levels I did, and if she'd done the same she would have done as well or better than me. Even though she had exactly the same opportunities and just made different choices!

My Ex is another example. Despite his parents and grandparents owning their own homes, and working in a role where from the age of 21 he was earning £30k+ a year, when I met him 15 years later he lived at home (and always had), had 2k in savings and a car worth £10k. He said I was lucky to know I should buy a house and save money he'd 'never really thought about it' and wished someone had told him to! Except no one told me either - I grew up in a housing assoc property. none of my family owned their homes.

You're Lucky you got accepted at the 6th form and Cambridge, if you hadn't, where would your life have gone?

I totally agree that having good health is a huge advantage.

I think aside from that, you can't really apply one simplistic notion to each and every individual's differing situations. I know someone with a trust find who has never worked a proper day in his life and has basically done not a lot with his life. I also know someone who is independently wealthy who became an anaesthetist in the NHS and they definitely worked hard right up to retirement. My sister, although not wealthy, has always worked massively hard at her job. She is a very conscientious person and hardly ever had time off. Always early for work. Always picked up other people's slack where necessary. When they were making people redundant in her department (twice), she hung on to her job and I am sure it was because of her conscientious nature. Both of the hard-working people described above are undoubtedly lucky in many ways, but equally that doesn't negate the consistent graft that they put in to their jobs either.

I disagree.

I've known people from all walks of life who've done well. Many had hardly any qualifications but were very motivated and moved up from working in a trade to having their own business.

I also know people who went to expensive private schools and top universities but who work incredibly hard to stay where they are in life.

Yes it is obviously easier to get started if you have money, stability and support behind you, but I really think it's down to the individual.

I worked for two decades in a very competitive creative industry, and the most impressive employees there typically hadn't been to university.

YABU. Sounds like sour grapes actually or a big chip on your shoulder.

Give you my own experience. Had a child very young. Abandoned by their father who also never paid child support. Would change jobs often so hard to track down to get court ordered support garnished from his pay. Had no money, no job and lived in a different country that has no social medicine, so no medical care for my child. I could have gone on the equivalent of the dole, but understood I’d have to declare bankruptcy for the small amount of debt I had and then it’s very hard to come off the dole. If I’d done the bankruptcy, I would not have been able to eventually have the career I wanted (financial service). So I got a job at night that paid well because of unsociable hours and depressing environment, transcribing medical records in a state hospital. My childcare was a teenage girl and she looked after my child in her home (so help from her mum). I had no social life. I spent no money on myself. I used cloth nappies, so after the initial outlay, the costs were minimal. I used baby oil and cloths to clean my baby to avoid costs of wipes, made my own baby food and I’d the “canning” myself from pick your own veg and farmers markets. I eventually found a nursery on a university campus that had reduced fees for single mothers and also took some classes there while working full time at night, operating on very little sleep until I had my degree whereupon I changed jobs but also had to pick up project work related to my field on weekends (evenings) to help ends meet. Did not even have time to think about dating let alone any “me” time or outings with friends - until my child was 5 years old (school age for my country). Even then I continued my further education with a masters and then professional qualifications (very intense study plus hours long series of exams). Took me to 30 to qualify. Years of high stress, lots of tears, very little sleep, no nights out etc. So yes, worked bloody hard for what I achieved but I could have chosen the easy option and gone on the dole and the occasional unskilled jobs. BUT My child is now in their 30s, happy, healthy, great relationship and he’s followed the same profession. I own my own home and have a I’d retirement fund, friends and a lovely husband plus additional DC born after I qualified.

I love the saying "There's no such thing as luck - it's just when preparation meets opportunity".

I don't think this is a binary question. In every person it will be a different mixture of factors that make them successful/unsuccessful.

Denying the input of hard work/grit and being totally fatalistic is a very defeatist approach.

It particularly annoys me when used as an argument against inheritance tax.
Life is a bit like monopoly: enough luck to shrug it off if you lose; enough skill to take credit when you win.

@PalmarisLongus 6th form wasn't really a competitive situation, there were more places than students (this was back in the late 1980s), if I hadn't got a place at that one I'd have gone to another. Or college, or somewhere. There were places for anyone who applied basically. If my friend wanted to go to the same 6th form as me, or any other, she would have got in.

I didn't expect to get to Cambridge I was the first in my family even to get to uni and would have been happy with my insurance offer. Or a clearance place. Or indeed any uni place - as 6th formers we all worked out that our bottom line place was IIRC Bangor which at the time would take you on a B Ed with 2 Es at A level. I didn't particularly want to be a teacher but it was a back up if other things failed. And if I'd got 2 Us - resits or get a job.

I might actually have ended up better off in teaching in the long run - I certainly wouldn't have spent years in the office til 9pm at night! (I do appreciate teachers work beyond 9-3, but a lot of the additional work is done from home, which would have been far better for me when my children were young)

And well done to you @ILoveYoga and I don’t blame you for being proud of your achievements.

But I counted at least four points in your account (night job that paid well, overnight childcare, nursery space at uni, discount for single mothers) that could have very easily not have happened or gone a different way. Luck. I’m not passing comment on whether you would have given up at those points but I think it’s wrong to ignore when the situation has been stacked in your favour i.e not necessarily something anyone else could be guaranteed to be able to replicate.

@nokidshere

I read these threads regularly and the only thing that I can think of to say is why the hell do people care so much about what other people think or do?

Everyone I know works hard. Rich ones, poor ones, able ones, disabled ones, they all work as hard as they are able to.

Some people get where they are because they work hard and take risks. Some people get where they are because they work hard and seize every single opportunity they find. Some people get where they are because they have money and family connections but the majority still work hard.

By the same token, some people stay where they are because they don't take risks, seize opportunities, don't have family money and connections, but they all still work hard.

It's not just privilege, it's not just how hard you work, it's not just luck. It's a combination of all of those things with personality thrown in.

I'm hard working, I'm resilient, I'm educated, I'm disabled (but only recently). I've had opportunities that could have changed where I am now but I couldn't be bothered at the time. I'm not a risk taker and I want a calm, organised life (which I have). I've had to be proactive to get where I am now but some people aren't able to do that either.

It doesn't matter. Having a chip on your shoulder about who has what and why is the biggest denominator for failure. The only person that matters is you because what others do and don't have does not have any effect on what you personally are able to do.

Its not true though is it, that other people's opportunities have no effect on you? There are only so many fabulous jobs and brilliant opportunities to go round. Nowhere near enough for everyone who wants one. Its a huge competition for the best life has to offer, with the odds of winning weighted very much in favour of those who start from a position of privilege. Yes there are stories about people who have succeeded against the odds, but they are not the norm, and certainly not true of all who claim that narrative. Recognising that good fortune and accidents of birth hugely impact life chances is not having a chip on your shoulder, it's simply acknowledging an undeniable truth. And yes, it is irritating when people show no appreciation for the privileges that helped them along, and claim its all down to their own hard work.

And yes, it is irritating when people show no appreciation for the privileges that helped them along, and claim its all down to their own hard work.

It's only irritating if you let it be. It has no impact on my life if Jenny down the road thinks she only got where she is because of hard work. I'm unlikely to change her mind and I know it's not true.

Yes and no...inherited money= priveledged.
Other things= hard work.

Question for those of you who think it's down to luck -- are you very risk averse by nature?

@gwenneh

Question for those of you who think it's down to luck -- are you very risk averse by nature?

I've already covered the point that it's much harder to take risks if the outcome of them not going your way would be devastating.

"if I hadn't got a place at that one I'd have gone to another. Or college, or somewhere. There were places for anyone who applied basically. If my friend wanted to go to the same 6th form as me, or any other, she would have got in."

Yes, but not if she wasn't academic at all. That's where the luck comes in.

I've already covered the point that it's much harder to take risks if the outcome of them not going your way would be devastating.

That's perfectly understandable. I'm more curious about situations where the risk isn't life-or-death.

I have an acquaintance who subscribes to the luck school of thought. Yet I've noticed that she's unwilling to take even small risks even though the benefit would be enormous and the penalty for failure low. She is extremely risk adverse, and I'm curious if this is a common trait among those who feel luck is the larger part.

@ILoveYoga

YABU. Sounds like sour grapes actually or a big chip on your shoulder.

Give you my own experience. Had a child very young. Abandoned by their father who also never paid child support. Would change jobs often so hard to track down to get court ordered support garnished from his pay. Had no money, no job and lived in a different country that has no social medicine, so no medical care for my child. I could have gone on the equivalent of the dole, but understood I’d have to declare bankruptcy for the small amount of debt I had and then it’s very hard to come off the dole. If I’d done the bankruptcy, I would not have been able to eventually have the career I wanted (financial service). So I got a job at night that paid well because of unsociable hours and depressing environment, transcribing medical records in a state hospital. My childcare was a teenage girl and she looked after my child in her home (so help from her mum). I had no social life. I spent no money on myself. I used cloth nappies, so after the initial outlay, the costs were minimal. I used baby oil and cloths to clean my baby to avoid costs of wipes, made my own baby food and I’d the “canning” myself from pick your own veg and farmers markets. I eventually found a nursery on a university campus that had reduced fees for single mothers and also took some classes there while working full time at night, operating on very little sleep until I had my degree whereupon I changed jobs but also had to pick up project work related to my field on weekends (evenings) to help ends meet. Did not even have time to think about dating let alone any “me” time or outings with friends - until my child was 5 years old (school age for my country). Even then I continued my further education with a masters and then professional qualifications (very intense study plus hours long series of exams). Took me to 30 to qualify. Years of high stress, lots of tears, very little sleep, no nights out etc. So yes, worked bloody hard for what I achieved but I could have chosen the easy option and gone on the dole and the occasional unskilled jobs. BUT My child is now in their 30s, happy, healthy, great relationship and he’s followed the same profession. I own my own home and have a I’d retirement fund, friends and a lovely husband plus additional DC born after I qualified.

Alternatively, you could write it another way.

"Had a child very young, which was not a great decision in hindsight. Abandoned by their father who also never paid child support. Would change jobs often so hard to track down to get court ordered support garnished from his pay. Had no money, no job and lived in a different country that has no social medicine, so no medical care for my child. I did luckily have the option to go on the dole so we wouldn't starve to death or have to live on the street, but understood I’d have to declare bankruptcy for the small amount of debt I had and then it’s very hard to come off the dole, so obviously I wasn't that desperate. If I’d done the bankruptcy, I would not have been able to eventually have the exact career I wanted (financial service), so I made the educated choice not to go down that route. I was then fortunate enough to get a job at night that paid well because of unsociable hours and depressing environment, transcribing medical records in a state hospital. Thank God I had that option! I was also lucky enough to be able to use a teenage girl for cheap childcare and she looked after my child in her home (so help from her mum) - two childminders for the price of one! I had no social life. I spent no money on myself. I used cloth nappies, so after the initial outlay, the costs were minimal. I used baby oil and cloths to clean my baby to avoid costs of wipes, made my own baby food and I’d the “canning” myself from pick your own veg and farmers markets - just as well those were around to provide a budget food option for us. I eventually was fortunate enough to find a nursery on a university campus that had reduced fees for single mothers (so lucky!!) and also took some classes there while working full time at night, operating on very little sleep until I had my degree. Luckily I was healthy enough to be able to do that! I then changed jobs but also had to pick up project work related to my field on weekends (evenings) to help ends meet. Did not even have time to think about dating let alone any “me” time or outings with friends - until my child was 5 years old (school age for my country). Even then I was fortunate to have the opportunity to continue my further education with a masters and then professional qualifications (very intense study plus hours long series of exams). It only took me until I was 30 to qualify in a very well-paid profession and after just a decade or so of hardship in my very early adulthood, I now have a great and comfortable life."

There you go. See how different it looks when you acknowledge your good fortune, luck and support from others?

@smokeyjoes

Resilience and optimism play a huge part in making yourself get up again and again and refusing to give up

To me those two things are the secret. And usually a large drive (often not that obvious) to succeed. Only some people have this, maybe 20% or the population?

I agree smokeyjoes having been brought up in care and facing many hurdles to being lucky. I was in a children's home from a month old, faced several deaths before the age of 13 of key people in my life and worked very hard at school to change what were potentially limited opportunities. I also studied part-time whilst holding down a full-time job, with 3 children under the age of 9. That is more than luck.

@gwenneh

I've already covered the point that it's much harder to take risks if the outcome of them not going your way would be devastating.

That's perfectly understandable. I'm more curious about situations where the risk isn't life-or-death.

I have an acquaintance who subscribes to the luck school of thought. Yet I've noticed that she's unwilling to take even small risks even though the benefit would be enormous and the penalty for failure low. She is extremely risk adverse, and I'm curious if this is a common trait among those who feel luck is the larger part.

What kind of small risks are we talking?

I've recently started investing a little bit here in there, including high risk things like crypto. The rewards could potentially be great, but so are the risks. I'm comfortable enough now that I can afford to gamble a few hundred quid here and there without it potentially devastating my finances and leaving me hungry but there were times that a gamble or a risk not going my way would have absolutely wiped me out.