AIBU about people who say ‘they worked hard to get to where they are’?

[MessyMissyMe]

Generally these are highly paid people who were able to go to University (support from parents/inherited intellect/confidence and self belief built up by secure, happy childhood) or had the resources to start their own business and were lucky enough to get remunerated by employment that they enjoyed and were good at, didn’t have outside influences or stressors that made things harder/took up time they needed to study or build a career.

They basically are just LUCKY and don’t deserve their success anymore than a cleaner or a care worker living hand to mouth in social housing deserves their lack of.

AIBU to get annoyed at people who say this?

@AlexaShutUp

Don't have an issue with people saying they have worked hard to get what they have, I have an issue with the belief that hard work is the only denominator and it's only a lack of hard work that ensures people don't have whatever bar has been set.

Totally agree @Maverickess. Some of the hardest and most needed jobs in our society are very poorly paid.

Yes, and it's the lack of acknowledgement to that that I find frustrating and unfair, and the belief that only those who are financially successful 'deserve' certain things, and unless what you do with your life results in financial success, you are undeserving - when in reality it's society's lack of acknowledgement of any non financial results that mean there's this viewpoint that money = success and nothing else matters, and that hard work automatically = money. Neither really is true, but a lot of people like to subscribe to that view, imo, because actually it's a really unlevel playing field, and they like to think that everyone started from the same point, with the same opportunities and it's lack of aspirations or hard work that results in lack of 'success' when that couldn't be further from the truth, no one likes to think that they're thought of as having it easy, and so go to lengths to prove they didn't, and that they're deserving of what they have, and the only possible way another would not have it is because they didn't work as hard and therefore don't deserve it.

It's a mixture of hard work, drive, resilience, willingness to take risks and luck.

A bit of everything goes into the mix to be successful against the odds. A lot of just one will rarely get you very far.

YABU
My son was brought up in a single parent household on benefits on a rough conciliatory estate. He DID work hard to get where he is today.

How someone is financially successful also needs to be taken into consideration.
Are you successful because you've invested in creating and building a business yourself, but then employed people paying them low wages with no job benefits, meaning they need top ups from social benefits to live, while the work they do for you is increasing your profit?
Is that success or exploiting the situation for your own gain, telling yourself you deserve it?

I think this thread is entrenching my view that luck plays a large part in success.

For me, I think it’s apparent that generally working hard goes without saying especially when comparing general situations. Whether that hard work actually pays off or not is largely down to luck.

There are outliers at both ends of the scale but it seems to me that the majority work hard both professionally and personally to be self sufficient and secure.

@TheStein

YABU My son was brought up in a single parent household on benefits on a rough conciliatory estate. He DID work hard to get where he is today.

So were you a shit parent or was he lucky enough to grow up with a loving and supportive mum?

He might have worked very hard to overcome some disadvantages but he may also have been lucky enough to benefit from other advantages.

It isn't a simple equation of hard work = success.

@TheStein

YABU My son was brought up in a single parent household on benefits on a rough conciliatory estate. He DID work hard to get where he is today.

I'm sure nobody would disagree but what we're saying is that luck/chance is also a contributing factor.

I wasn’t a great mum, my mental health is shit and I had no motivation myself. He was bullied throughout school and grew up knowing that his father didn’t give a shit about him. One of his friends committed suicide during his GCSE years which knackered up his own mental health (and his results!). But he wanted to be rich and he has worked since he was 13 constantly to achieve that.

I disagree with you op. My DH did have some advantages but his parents went bankrupt several times during his childhood and he had to pay off their debts, put himself through university, and keep his family afloat for the following 25 years. He still supports a family member now to a degree. He works really, really hard and rarely has time off.

Yes, I can't stand people who say this stuff and are totally ignorant of their own privilege.

Even in cases where someone had a terrible start in life and built up their own business, there still will have been elements of luck in that. Being reasonably physically and mentally healthy is something a lot of people take completely for granted, for one thing.

@TheStein

I wasn’t a great mum, my mental health is shit and I had no motivation myself. He was bullied throughout school and grew up knowing that his father didn’t give a shit about him. One of his friends committed suicide during his GCSE years which knackered up his own mental health (and his results!). But he wanted to be rich and he has worked since he was 13 constantly to achieve that.

OK, so a huge well done to him for getting their some challenging life circumstances.

But do you accept that someone else might have worked just as hard without necessarily achieving the same success? Through no fault of their own?

And do you agree that, if someone chooses to prioritise helping others over and above getting rich (eg by taking a role in the care sector or similar), then they might not enjoy the same level of "success" (as society defines it) but they may still have worked just as hard?

@Maverickess - thank goodness for people like you

I am astounded having RTFT that there has been so little mention of the importance and luck of being physically and mentally healthy.

Judging by this thread, and by successive governments and political parties pre election campaigns, those of us who are unable to work, however hard we would like to, really are totally worthless in a capitalist society. And don't we know it.

A few posters have mentioned about people with disabilities or chronic illness and how they have achieved great things. That is genuinely fantastic and they will have probably worked even harder to get where they have. However many of us with poor health will have tried to "work our arses off" but unfortunately our bodies have other ideas.

Just as well some of us value people for more than their economic value. And before everyone piles on, I am well aware that a healthy economy is required in order to provide for those of us at the bottom of the heap.

However it is rather disingenuous for those who are able to work hard not to acknowledge that health is the greatest gift you have been given. So many people seem to take it for granted.

Many things in life can be determined by things within your control eg willingness to work to the best of your abilities, pride in your work and a healthy work ethic.

However, as the OP has mentioned, there are also a number of factors which are outside your control.

I fully admit that I have been lucky in being born into a stable family, in a western society that provided me with educational opportunities. I am lucky that because of my ethnicity background, I have not been subject to racism. I am lucky that I was born with a level of intelligence that enabled me to learn and develop my intellectual skills.

I can recognise all of these things as being lucky. Just as I can recognise my bad luck in having had a lifetime of a disabling and chronic illness which means I am unlikely to be able to carry out any paid employment, however "hard" I work (although I have done in the past).

It seems to me that if MN is reflective of society at large, it is quite a depressing picture.

Are rich conmen/grifters successful because they work hard and have other attributes mentioned here (risk takers, inquisitive, driven etc.) or because they’re lucky enough to have not been caught?

(As an aside I really struggled to think of a gender neutral alternative to the word conmen! )

@FrauleinSchweiger I did make the point about physical and mental health just before you posted!

It is indeed so depressing how so many people say they haven't benefitted from luck and then go on to talk about how they 'grafted'. Just how hard do they think someone can graft if they're disabled or chronically ill? I'm fortunate enough to be able to work, but my earnings and job options have been hugely limited by my health. All this about 'get up at 5am and go for a run and get four hours' sleep a night and power on'...I'd end up in hospital after about a week of that.

If someone is healthy enough to be able to work very long hours and not become extremely sick, I'd say they're very lucky indeed.

@Rozziie - yes I didn't see your post until after I had had my little rant .

I completely agree with you about being extremely lucky not to be limited by your body or mind.

Is it a luck to be in the majority of population being healthy or is it a bad luck not to be.

I personally don't think it's a luck to be healthy. It's unlucky to not be.

Saying it's lucky makes it sound like an usual thing imo.

I mentioned my friend who complained that I had been given more opportunities than her and was lucky earlier.

Another poor choice she made was turning down the opportunity to get a funded professional qualification at work. She declined it as they said that if she left within 1 year she’d have to repay it and as she wasn’t happy there she felt it was a risk. She’s still there 12 years later. She’s upset as they haven’t offered her any paid for training in recent years and her pay has stagnated.

Yes some of it is luck, some of it is hard work but some of it is also about the decisions you make.

@Annoyedanddissapointed

Is it a luck to be in the majority of population being healthy or is it a bad luck not to be.

I personally don't think it's a luck to be healthy. It's unlucky to not be.

Saying it's lucky makes it sound like an usual thing imo.

This is exactly what a healthy person would say.

Almost 20% of the UK population has a disability of some kind. So no, not the majority, but it's a significant minority, isn't it? I wouldn't say it was particularly unlucky to be part of the 1 in 5 people.

@Annoyedanddissapointed - I think it depends which side you're on .

From my personal point of view, having had my physical limitations for most of my life, anyone who can do 'normal things' is v lucky. But I do appreciate that my view is subjective. I guess if you have not been limited by your health then to you it is normal and I'm the unlucky one.

I don't necessarily think it makes a difference whether people think they're lucky or I'm unlucky but the point is it's still "luck" that has played a part IFSWIM.

@JackieWeaverHandforthCouncil

I mentioned my friend who complained that I had been given more opportunities than her and was lucky earlier.

Another poor choice she made was turning down the opportunity to get a funded professional qualification at work. She declined it as they said that if she left within 1 year she’d have to repay it and as she wasn’t happy there she felt it was a risk. She’s still there 12 years later. She’s upset as they haven’t offered her any paid for training in recent years and her pay has stagnated.

Yes some of it is luck, some of it is hard work but some of it is also about the decisions you make.

Did she have any kind of a safety net if it hadn't worked out? That's another thing a lot of people don't think of when questioning why people haven't made a financial or career decision. I quit my job to do a full-time course leading to a career change and the stress was incredible knowing that if it didn't work out, I'd be up shit creek without a paddle. It took me 5 years to be able to take that plunge. Someone with a spouse or parents who could support them always has to consider that they could end up in an even worse situation than the one they're in.

Yes she did have a safety net, she was still living with her partner. There was no financial risk.

The options were the company would invest in her to go on the course and bring these skills back to her role (accountancy) with the view to being fully qualified or don’t and stay at a junior unqualified level. She would not have been fired if she didn’t pass. The only thing they said was that if she were to resign within 1 year of taking that course she’d have to refund them.

She decided to not do the course in case she decided to leave. She’s been there 12 years since.

I was just thinking that @Rozziie. I suppose that’s where the risk taking comes in but I do think it’s a very real barrier to a lot of improvement.

@JackieWeaverHandforthCouncil

Yes she did have a safety net, she was still living with her partner. There was no financial risk.

The options were the company would invest in her to go on the course and bring these skills back to her role (accountancy) with the view to being fully qualified or don’t and stay at a junior unqualified level. She would not have been fired if she didn’t pass. The only thing they said was that if she were to resign within 1 year of taking that course she’d have to refund them.

She decided to not do the course in case she decided to leave. She’s been there 12 years since.

You don't know that her partner would have been happy to support her. I was living with a long-term partner when I had to stop work to do a short professional course and he refused to cover my rent for 3 months. He begrudgingly agreed we could go 60/40 for that time - I wasn't earning anything.

Your example seems like less of a risk but a lot of people do have genuine reasons for being what looks to the outside like ridiculously risk averse.

@Cornettoninja

I was just thinking that *@Rozziie*. I suppose that’s where the risk taking comes in but I do think it’s a very real barrier to a lot of improvement.

And wealth creation. A lot of investment is about taking big risks - easy to do that when you're not going to end up hungry or homeless if it doesn't work out.

I read these threads regularly and the only thing that I can think of to say is why the hell do people care so much about what other people think or do?

Everyone I know works hard. Rich ones, poor ones, able ones, disabled ones, they all work as hard as they are able to.

Some people get where they are because they work hard and take risks. Some people get where they are because they work hard and seize every single opportunity they find. Some people get where they are because they have money and family connections but the majority still work hard.

By the same token, some people stay where they are because they don't take risks, seize opportunities, don't have family money and connections, but they all still work hard.

It's not just privilege, it's not just how hard you work, it's not just luck. It's a combination of all of those things with personality thrown in.

I'm hard working, I'm resilient, I'm educated, I'm disabled (but only recently). I've had opportunities that could have changed where I am now but I couldn't be bothered at the time. I'm not a risk taker and I want a calm, organised life (which I have). I've had to be proactive to get where I am now but some people aren't able to do that either.

It doesn't matter. Having a chip on your shoulder about who has what and why is the biggest denominator for failure. The only person that matters is you because what others do and don't have does not have any effect on what you personally are able to do.