AIBU about people who say ‘they worked hard to get to where they are’?

[MessyMissyMe]

Generally these are highly paid people who were able to go to University (support from parents/inherited intellect/confidence and self belief built up by secure, happy childhood) or had the resources to start their own business and were lucky enough to get remunerated by employment that they enjoyed and were good at, didn’t have outside influences or stressors that made things harder/took up time they needed to study or build a career.

They basically are just LUCKY and don’t deserve their success anymore than a cleaner or a care worker living hand to mouth in social housing deserves their lack of.

AIBU to get annoyed at people who say this?

All those people who have dragged themselves up from the lowly working classes, great job. If only your parents had paid a bit more attention at school or worked a bit harder, maybe you could have started off as middle class.
You can see the silliness of these beliefs. We all love a hard luck story, but the biggest (average) predictors of success still remain the education and professional level of your parents. So a bit of luck always helps eh.

I agree mostly. Luck plays the biggest part in many things. Yes you have to put the edify in but some people have it way easier than others!

Edify no idea what that means….

Effort

@delilahbucket

If you called me lucky I would be extremely pissed off. I left home at 16 with nothing but my clothes, having scraped through my GCSEs, unable to cope living with my suicidal mother any longer. I have a successful business which came about after a fall put me in a wheelchair for 14 months. Is that lucky? Or was it just me starting a business because I knew I would never be able to work in a regular job again? And having enough desire to make it a success in order to feed and clothe my son. Yes it means when things are busy I am found working 15 hour days 6-7 days a week, but it's all luck of course. I have been trapped in two abusive relationships, one resulting in me having a child at 22 and then being a single mother with no financial support from anyone. On the other hand my sister has been funded through university three times, has one degree and struggles to hold down her very decent job, taking regular handouts from my mum, and she's a drug addict. Maybe she's been extremely unlucky, even though she's been given everything I haven't. You make your own luck and you make your own decisions.

Couldn't agree more 💕

But the “luck” or lack of it doesn’t completely determine the future. Both my parents had addictions, I was kept home from school at 14. My DB and Dsis have had addiction problems as well. Whilst this is bad luck for some it made me determined to do better. That meant leaving home at 17 and working to get a property to call my own by doing stupid hours, working unpaid to get a promotion. Luck played its part in intelligence and health but working as many hours as I could set the path. I had to work harder than those around me as I had no safety net. It’s always complicated but for some it’s not as simple as luck alone

Of all my friends DH and I have worked the hardest and struggled the most financially to get where we are.

Why was that?

@5329871e

Obviously some people fall on hard times through no fault of their own. But the majority of people in menial jobs simply didn’t pay enough attention at school.

There are multiple studies and research that directly link health and social outcomes to family income and area that one resides in. If you live in a poor socioeconomically deprived area your outcomes are reduced. There was research Sutton trust i believe, that noted even with good school grades and uni working class children/students have a less favourable outcome than mc pupils/students with same grades and uni.

Okay. So I come from a refugee background, typical,daughter of the corner shop owner who grew up behind the counter. Experienced everything. Learnt my 10x 20 x times tables giving out fags in the rush before school. Up at 5am to go to the shop to do the papers, do the paper round, go to school, go to the cash and carry after school, then homework (set by parents as I went to a trashy school). Have been spat at, the lady who took me to school called me a paki virtually everyday.

Kept my head down and worked like a dog.

Paid my way through university, one of the toughest courses. Got overlooked by people richer, prettier, whiter, better spoken.

Now serving the public, and nothing much has changed. Still hard work, but I go home to my lovely house, with my beautiful family, and can afford more than anything I want and need.

I'm grateful but I don't begrudge myself anything. I've been lucky but I've gone that extra 5 miles where others think they've gone an extra one.

I also don't give a shut what other lesser successful people think of me. I pity them and their grudges.

But the majority of people in menial jobs simply didn’t pay enough attention at school

Geezo 😱

Me and my bestie both went to uni. I studied nursing and he studied computer science. He earns over £100, 000 per year I work as a clinical nurse specialist and take home £30, 000. I get pissed off when he says "I'm at the top of my game" "well I'm at the top of my game". "I worked hard to get here" he says. "I worked hard to get to my position too". In all honesty I have more post grad qualifications than he does.

Basically life isn't fair and some jobs get paid more than others - maybe that is just, maybe that is unjust. But to argue that it is because you work hard that you get massively rewarded is frustrating for others how also work hard but their jobs don't pay as much.

The wages for my job have been going backwards in real terms for the last 10 years and the working conditions have been getting harder.

Hard graft has nothing to do with this argument. The majority of people work hard.

@5329871e

Obviously some people fall on hard times through no fault of their own. But the majority of people in menial jobs simply didn’t pay enough attention at school.

This just isn't true though.

I know several people with good degrees who don't know how to advance their careers, and also other people who paid very little attention at school who have done very well for themselves in the world of work.

I have a colleague who does exactly the same job as me. She told me she's worked damn hard to get where she is today. I was taken a back because I'm doing the job I do partly because I'm not massively academic, partly because I was lazy at school at partly because I want a relatively stress free, fun job, that's close to home, even though it's not particularly well paid. I realised I've had quite a privileged life compared to my college, and my laziness has meant I've ended up in exactly the same position as someone else who has had to fight tooth and nail to get there.

[quote Glasstabletop]@Sarahlou63

The source is literally every study done on educational achievement ever anywhere in the world. Fucking hell.[/quote]
Blimey. So luck and hard work are measurable attributes these days are they?

YABVU to reduce most/everyone’s success to sheer luck.

We could argue that no one is deserving to success more than someone else and could definitely agree that the amount of work put into something doesn’t always correlate with how successful one becomes as shown by the amount of people killing themselves through excruciatingly hard work in very low paid jobs.

BUT to say that people who are successful/high earner can only have done so through luck and hand outs is offensive and really undermines the struggles/work a lot of people have put in.

I am LUCKY to have beaten the odds and have become a high(er)-earner and I can’t deny that but luck didn’t bring me where I am at. In fact luck is something I didn’t feel I have had much of and I would happily swap my salary for a cleaner’s IF they are lucky in all other aspect as they probably are the most successful one of the two.

I was born to a teenage mother from a very violent and narcissistic/manipulative dad, my childhood was spent in pretty massive poverty in a fairly toxic environment with a fair amount of social services involvement. I was sexually abused as a child and teenager, struggled a lot with mental health, lost a child at 18 (miscarriage). Moved out at 16 due to the toxicity of my home, it was so bad I literally left the country and came back at 18 for my final exam (having studied on my own time rather than school) where I got my diploma. I learned to speak several languages fluently and understand a few more so I could find jobs as needed. I tried to go to uni but couldn’t afford it so I focused on working very hard and developing what I thought were useful skills. All while working on my confidence and tackling former traumas/mental health issues and becoming the best/healthiest version of me I could be. I learned to market myself and made sure I had only good recommendation. I have never burn a bridge and in fact always took every work opportunity to build as many bridges as possible so I had options if worst ever came to worst. I don’t think I have ever worked under 55 to 60 hours+ a week since I am 16 (often working way more than that).

All of the efforts I have put in is now leading to where I am at, which is financially more comfortable and earning a good wage.

So while cleaners aren’t any less hard-working or deserving of success than I am and in fact aren’t any less successful that I am. (Since, as I have said, I would happily swap my paycheck for a great childhood and happy/lucky background)
I like to think that I have worked very very hard to be where I am at. Many many times it felt much easier to just shoot a bullet into my skull and in fact, some days I look back and it still feels like the easiest option.

I am now dealing with health issues, so yes maybe financially I am lucky/successful. But is money what you genuinely define success by? I think money is one but a small, if not the smallest/least important definition of success.

I worked really hard to be where I am at financially. I made unconventional choices, I found my niche and worked really hard to establish myself there, but that’s as successful as I get. Yet now that’s all people see. People only see me as «lucky» because I earn a certain amount or can afford certain things. I am not allowed to complain anymore because «I don’t know what it’s like to be poor» (yes, yes I do. I was homeless for a bit and almost fell into sex trafficking. I very much know what it’s like to starve yourself to pay rent and think about prostituting yourself to pay your bills)

I see most other people as the luckiest because what I have I for sure wouldn’t have had had my story been a happy one and had my childhood been non-traumatic this was my spark but it was bloody hard to use it as my fuel rather than my demise. Is my paycheck worth having what I have been through? You decide but personally my bank account doesn’t comfort me when I pass a happy family or when I hear about my friends happy relationship with their parents and my heart undeniably warms up in joy for them all while bleeding out for me. So so many things money can’t buy and can’t replace. So so many definitions of success and being successful.
It takes bloody hard work to be where people are at:

• whether it’s being confident
• being financially secure
• having a happy family unit
• being mentally well
• being physically well

-or simply being a good human.

Most of those things require internal and external work attaining any of those things is being successful. In all cases some of it will be luck and for some, some of those things will come in naturally but for most having one, a combo and/or all of that is a daily fight and you don’t get to undermine people’s accomplishments by only looking at the results of such hard work and deeming it «soleluck» . It is hard work to become, be, and remain financially secure in today’s world, wether people are lucky or not and that shouldn’t be undermined.

I think it's important here, to define what is meant by 'luck'

I worked incredibly hard at school when lots of my friends didn't bother and went partying all the time instead. Unlike me they didn't have physically abusive families at home. I saw education and university as my way out. I got into Oxford and then got a first by hard work against a family background that said any education of girls was a waste of time and money as all they were fit for was getting married and having babies.

My degree got me into finance and a decent job. Yes once I was there I was well paid but I worked hard in my teenage years to get there.

I know I've been lucky.

But I also know I've worked damn hard when I've needed to.

You are generalising. I grew up in a violent alcoholic abusive home and left at 18 to go to uni but had a breakdown a few years later. Nothing was handed to me. In my twenties I had very poor mental health, dire finances, put up with all manner of shit at work, was very lonely and unsupported. Started earning six figure at 32-ish, earned multiples of that since. I really did work massively hard to get here and made consistently good decisions. Thinking back, there was one clear case of good luck where a job was created for me by someone who had faith in me, but many instances of bad luck too which I just sucked up.

If you knew my life story, I went through crap and I would consider myself as a success. I just had resilience and went through a rough ride

@Kiwirose

Me and my bestie both went to uni. I studied nursing and he studied computer science. He earns over £100, 000 per year I work as a clinical nurse specialist and take home £30, 000. I get pissed off when he says "I'm at the top of my game" "well I'm at the top of my game". "I worked hard to get here" he says. "I worked hard to get to my position too". In all honesty I have more post grad qualifications than he does.

Basically life isn't fair and some jobs get paid more than others - maybe that is just, maybe that is unjust. But to argue that it is because you work hard that you get massively rewarded is frustrating for others how also work hard but their jobs don't pay as much.

The wages for my job have been going backwards in real terms for the last 10 years and the working conditions have been getting harder.

Hard graft has nothing to do with this argument. The majority of people work hard.

But it's not luck here, though, is it -- it's that you both made different decisions.

these are highly paid people who were able to go to University (support from parents/inherited intellect/confidence and self belief built up by secure, happy childhood).

You're mistaking people who go to university with privilege.

My father was an abusive bastard who hardly instilled me with the Colgate ring of confidence during my childhood. My parents were of a modest means and didn't give me a bean; not that my father would have given me financial support if he'd had it.

I worked as a secretary until my early twenties and then went to university as a mature student. I made huge financial sacrifices, worked part-time all the way through, took my coursework very seriously and came out with a Class 1 degree.

I'm aware other people who have a less comfortable lifestyle than I do work hard too, for less reward. That's unfortunate.

But handed to me on a silver platter, it was not. It entailed a hell of a lot of sacrifice. I've had no help - nada - from a single soul. Far from feeling sorry for myself, I'm proud of that fact. Nor am I resentful or envious of those to whom these things come easily, or that they've had to fight less hard for than I have.

Competition is the thief of joy.

@Kiwirose which one of you is happier?

Who has the most fulfilling job?

Resentment is futile. If he's your best friend, you should really be happy for him, and he should be your champion.

"You make your own luck and you make your own decisions"

I don't think that's an inspirational message. Is someone being diagnosed with a terminal illness making their own luck? someone with learning difficulties unable to obtain a mainstream education making their own luck ?

Yes theres some stories of people overcoming significant adversity and making life better for themselves and that is brilliant, no ones trying to take that a way, a lot of hard work would have gone into that.

But there is also people out there due to their individual circumstances no matter how hard they work, be it their family circumstances, their health, the fact they were never taught resilience or coping strategies, no matter how hard they work theyll not be successful. They can't "make their own luck".

To say that luck is involved in success isnt saying there is an absence of hard work. Just that to some degree there is a mix of the two, be it 50/50 luck and hard work or 90 hard work and 10 luck.

Luck can simply just come from having the awareness of the opportunities to look for. I work in health and social care, some people are so stuck in their bubbles of poverty, poor education and deprivation that even going to university is a different world to them.

I can give you my back story which involves social services, parental mental health issues, my own physical health issues. I can tell you how hard I worked at school. Its all true.
But what is also true is I got my first job in a law firm because I left school exactly when a lot of properties that had been in negative equity from the early 90s property crash were all no longer in negative equity and were being sold in big numbers. It was just the start of a property boom and the firm were desperate for staff. Yes i worked hard when there and yes I studied hard. But if i'd left school 3 years earlier they werent employing people and 3-5 years later they raised the entry requirements from A levels to a degree.

Child in poverty - I went to uni. I have a high paid job now. Worked hard. You’re bitter.

inherited intellect - wtf
Some people win in the gene game and some people don't

This current desperate desire to diss what people have achieved through their own hard work, sometimes help sometimes luck and make out they were privileged in some way so they are not as worthy as others who perceive their life is harder - is really starting to get on my nerves.