Page 15 | If you start work at 9 am, is it OK to walk through the door at 9 am ?

merrymouse · 07/09/2021 08:56

What company really requires large swathes of the workforce to drink coffee for 20 minutes every day

I did say ‘some people’, but the kind of company whose business depends on networking and personal interaction. Many businesses are like that.

SirChenjins · 07/09/2021 09:02

Networking doesn't involve coming in at 9, sitting drinking coffee with your colleagues for 20 minutes, chatting about non work related stuff, and then scooting off bang on your finishing time . If your company depends on its employees each doing 100 minutes less productive work each week then that's an interesting business model.

Whitefire · 07/09/2021 09:04

What company really requires large swathes of the workforce to drink coffee for 20 minutes every day and do 100 minutes less than they're getting paid for each work? Unless your JD specifically says 'working hours are from 9-5 with the first 20 minutes of every day to be spent drinking coffee and chatting about non-work related issues' then you - and everyone else who routinely works less that they're paid to - is taking the p.

But who does this really? Yes the odd person might but not great swathes of people. I work flexi time, walk in, clock in, someone may grab me as I walk to my desk, sit down, turn on computer. I'll say hello to people, but generally whilst just getting sorted. No 20 minute shenanigans going on.

If someone is doing that everyday then that needs to be dealt with, but not by making everyone else come in 20 minutes early.

SirChenjins · 07/09/2021 09:09

I totally agree - a company shouldn't be making everyone come in 20 minutes early and haven't said they should. Equally, no employee (imo) should come in with the mindset that a start time of 9 means 'in the building at 9 to start drinking coffee and chatting before starting to produce some actual work around 9.20' - and yet we all know people who do. It's not on (again, imo).

Littlecaf · 07/09/2021 09:11

That wouldn’t be late at my work. We have a clock in system on the ground floor, and my office is on the fifth floor - 10 flights of stairs later….

Hemingwaycat · 07/09/2021 09:12

I’d consider it late. Every job I have had I’ve had to get there at least 10 minutes early to get ready to start work. I had a couple of jobs where I had to get dressed at work so had to get there a good 15 minutes early. As a teacher I’m usually there an hour before pupils arrive. DH starts at 9 but gets there at least 5 mins early just to set his computer up and get a coffee.

Rukia · 07/09/2021 09:14

I work in an NHS job that isn’t patient facing or office based. You would be late if you were bang on time, but I’m normally only a couple of minutes early. I don’t believe in going in to work so early that you end up working unpaid for a couple of hours or month or whatever.

My DH, who works in retail management, would see this as being late. He’s 15-30 minutes early every day.

Jemand · 07/09/2021 09:21

I used to work somewhere where theoretically the hours were 9-5 but in practice people did a lot of unpaid overtime because of the nature of the job, so people were pretty flexible about starting times so long as everyone was working by around 9.15. At one point we had a manager who started making a big deal about being at your desk ready to start work at 9 on the dot and started threatening formal disciplinary sanctions. Result, everyone left at 5 on the dot and income fell. Not a clever move.

notacooldad · 07/09/2021 09:24

Equally, no employee (imo) should come in with the mindset that a start time of 9 means 'in the building at 9 to start drinking coffee and chatting before starting to produce some actual work around 9.20' - and yet we all know people who do. It's not on (again, imo)
Ooops! That's me.......and everyone else including manager and deputies that do this. However as been stated many times it depends on the job if this can be done or not.

Whitefire · 07/09/2021 09:24

You would be late if you were bang on time

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, how can one be on time, but simultaneously be late.

VanillaAndOrange · 07/09/2021 09:25

It depends how much "setting up" you need to do in order to do your job. If you can walk straight in and get on with it, no firing up a computer, setting up furniture or anything like that, then possibly it's OK. If there's anything to be done before you can start the job itself, then I think you need to allow a bit more time. And of course if there's a clocking-in or keying-in machine, it's very easy for the official figures to show you were "on time" when in fact you were not ready to start working at that time - you just have to be realistic, I think.

I'm quite lucky in that I work on my own in a place that is open to the public for a certain number of hours, and I get paid for 15 minutes before and after the opening hours, to give me time to get the computer ready, get cash in and out of the safe, open windows, do safety checks and set up a few other things that are better done "behind the scenes." If I'm running what I think of as late or need to leave bang on time, I can just about do all this in the 15 minutes. But I feel more comfortable and relaxed when I allow myself more time. There's no way on earth I could start at official opening time (even if I wasn't contractually obliged to be there earlier than that) and do the job properly. It has happened once, because of a delayed bus, and I was playing catch-up all day.

SirChenjins · 07/09/2021 09:26

Presumably because if you come into the office at 9 you’re not actually working at 9?

It’s give and take though. If you routinely work past your finish time then fine - if you’re starting late and finishing bang on your finish time every day then not fine.

shouldistop · 07/09/2021 09:27

I start work at 10 and can't get in the building til then. All of my previous jobs I would have been 10/15 minutes before starting time though to switch on my computer and make myself a cup of tea for my desk.

HarrietsChariot · 07/09/2021 09:30

If you have to be at your desk and ready to start work at 9am sharp then logically you should be finished and out the door at 5pm sharp.

I've found the companies who enforce the former don't allow the latter, they expect you to to work right up until 5pm and only shut down once you've finished what you're doing.

It's a symptom of our idiotic work culture, being present is more important than actual productivity.

3scape · 07/09/2021 09:34

I used to have flexi time. I would get in 10 - 15 mins before putting my start time on my timesheet UNTIL our untrusting manager started checking everyone's IT activity AND signing in AND I'd card logs against timesheets (And changed the documents without consulting people, I realised what was going on because I found a folder she'd made of timesheets she had submitted and she'd left files and screen shots from the other systems in it too - against it regs btw). Then I put my sign in time from the fire register (which was a totally unnecessary document that she wanted us to fill in, no other department had it). The more controlling the manager, the less they will get.
9am I'd be in at 8.45. For that manager though I started logging 8.45 iyswim.
So is it for someone trying to be petty? I'n which case hard adherence to rules might feel petty, but it's for your own defence when they start flinging dirt around.

Disneycharacter · 07/09/2021 09:35

Not if it takes you 10 minutes to get your coat off, get a coffee and organise yourself to start work. Work should start at 9.

Throwntothewolves · 07/09/2021 09:39

If you need your nanny to be ready to start at 9am then tell her so, then the onus is on her to be working at 9am, and not five or ten minutes later. Alternatively change her start time so there is no reason for her not to be ready to start work

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 07/09/2021 09:42

A lot of this is down to phrasing, I think.

It seems that saying "You are expected to arrive in good time so that you are ready to start work at 9" is completely acceptable to many; but if you phrased it more honestly as "We expect 10-15 minutes' unpaid work from you every single day, as we don't want to have to pay you for doing the routine prep that's essential to the job", it becomes instantly evident who the CFs are.

If your train left at 9am, would you walk into the station at 9am, NO. That’s the rule I use.

But you're the customer of the train company, not the employee. It's always wise to arrive in time to enable you to do what you need to before 'the main event' - whether getting on the train, arriving for your GP appointment, serving your first customer, taking your first phone call etc. - the question is who benefits from your getting there earlier and thus who should pay for that time?

Get there at 9 sharp and you've missed your train, so you suffer; get to your job as contracted (and paid) at 9, when the job requires 10 minutes of preparation work and so should have been contracted (and paid) from 8:50, your employer suffers; so it's on them to make (and pay for) proper arrangements for their job to be done - the whole job, not just the 'main' part.

Moonbabysmum · 07/09/2021 09:46

If you want to have a handover and be able to leave at 9, then you need to pay her to start earlier to allow for this. Or have the handover at 9, and leave afterwards.

Theres no reason she can't start work the second she comes through the door so her arriving at 9 is fine IMO. Like for the rest of the day, she cak make a cuppa and go for a pee whilst caring for the children. It doesn't have to be done before she starts.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 07/09/2021 09:54

If you need your nanny to be ready to start at 9am then tell her so, then the onus is on her to be working at 9am, and not five or ten minutes later. Alternatively change her start time so there is no reason for her not to be ready to start work

It really depends on why she isn't ready to start. If she gets there every day, then goes for a deliberately-timed leisurely poo whilst she catches up with her Facebook, that's completely unacceptable; but if you're not happy that she isn't ready to start looking after your children at 9 because you want/need to spend 10 minutes updating and informing her about your children's particular needs or circumstances for the day, she IS ready to start work, and IS working - you're just dismissing it and expecting her to take the essential briefing in her own unpaid time.

gannett · 07/09/2021 09:56

The answer is to get your beak out and stop clock-watching unless you're someone's manager.

If you are their manager then the question is not "does this count as LATE" but "are they getting their work done and is it good quality".

There are some jobs where it's necessary to be logged on and ready to go on the dot at a certain hour.

If this isn't one of those jobs, literally who gives a shit whether someone walks in 15 minutes early or at 9am or 15 minutes late.

Meruem · 07/09/2021 10:03

I did a lot of home visits in one role I had. For those I always arrived dead on time. Even if it meant I hung around at the end of the road for 10 minutes before knocking. My thinking was that if someone expects me at 10am they won’t necessarily appreciate me turning up at 9:50.

I don’t really see how the nanny isn’t ready to start work. What can she be doing? It’s not her home to be faffing around in.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 07/09/2021 10:42

Also, it's all very well saying that you should 'just arrive in good time to start work', but that's assuming the luxury of only one single workplace.

Carrying on the theme of employers' floccinaucinihilipilification when it comes to their employee's 'own' time, when the main job itself isn't being done but only prepared for or facilitated - for carers/HCPs doing home visits, not only do some employers refuse to pay for the considerable time or petrol costs in travelling between clients' homes, they will actually mark the employees down for taking 10 minutes to do a 10-minute journey. Client 1's slot finishes at 9:30 and then client 2's slot begins at 9:30 - even though they live at opposite ends of the town. But apparently, being unable to manipulate the laws of physics makes you unconscientious and not a dedicated worker....

SirChenjins · 07/09/2021 10:46

Yes of course it’s assuming it’s a single workplace. The care sector is a law unto itself - absolutely shocking what care staff are expected to do in their own time.

Minecraftlover · 07/09/2021 10:59

This thread has actually made me think twice about my own job, I always arrive at least 10 minutes early for work, usually 15 to be fair, and I start working as soon as I arrive (fast food type place). I get paid minimum wage, and actually have no idea why I work for free! I think in my mind I always add time to my journey for potential traffic etc, to avoid being late, but always end up being early so instead of sitting in my car I just go in and get started. I don't finish early though! Weird thing is, everyone else at my work does the same, some of them come at least half hour early every time! I remember my boss (who is absolutely lovely) once saying 'just in time!' when I turned up 8 minutes early, which is probably the latest I've ever been!

I'm now sat here thinking why do I do this