To think the proposed NI increases for social care are unfair?

[shouldbeworkingmore]

I recognise that social care needs funding but think that this proposal unfairly targets the younger generations. Plus we already have income taxes by stealth as the thresh holds have been frozen & wage stagnation is likely to continue for the next decade.

I agree and would have supported this idea. Seems to work fairly well in other European countries. But once it was dubbed ‘the Dementia Tax’ it and Mrs May were done for.

I actually thought this was quite a fair proposal & didn't understand why it was hated so much.

@Whycangirlsbesonasty

I have totally no problem with hitting pensioners in expensive houses with council tax. Downsize.

Why are you turning this into pensioner bashing?

Not all pensioners are parasites.

No one is claiming that, my parents are pensioners. Can there not be a calm, sensible debate without this language?

@Whycangirlsbesonasty

So what if council tax is high and only one person lives in the property. Perhaps they are living in too big a property for them and ought to downsize abd free up Lily h needed housing stock for families? Too many oldies rattling around in big houses where I live.

I live alone, and only get a 25% discount in council tax. The house next door currently has a family of 4 adults living there, how is it fair I only get a 25% discount? Council tax definitely needs reviewing to be more based on number of people as well.

But council tax isn’t uniform across the country. My 2 bed house up north is worth £180k but I pay more council tax than my relatives house in London which is 4 bed and worth £1.2m

That's why we have a banding system, if it were purely based on house prices some councils would end up a hell of a lot more money than others. And it doesn't necessarily mean people can afford more money to pay for council services just because they live somewhere where houses cost more.

Can there not be a calm, sensible debate without this language?

Someone upthread talked about "oldies" rattling around in their big houses. Others are saying that pensioners should be hit harder with council tax to force them to downsize. That is not a calm or sensible debate, it is bigoted though.

But why do you live alone in a 4 bed house? There is a housing crisis.

Do older people begrudge their tax going towards education, maternity, child benefit etc specifically because it doesn’t benefit them at their exact moment in their life? No, it’s incredibly short sighted, if not lacking in empathy to believe the tax you pay should only benefit your own generation.

Council tax definitely needs reviewing to be more based on number of people as well

As suggested in about 1990. Have you heard of the Poll Tax riots?

It’s a tiny amount in the grand scheme of things. Id love not to have any tax to pay at all but I think this is for the greater good and at age 35 I might not see the benefits now but I’d hope to see the benefits in my aged parents and myself as I get older

I’m not pensioner bashing, but 80% of pensioners I know are absolutely loaded. And they are not proportionately taxed.

Someone upthread talked about "oldies" rattling around in their big houses. Others are saying that pensioners should be hit harder with council tax to force them to downsize. That is not a calm or sensible debate, it is bigoted though.

Well I don't like the term 'oldies'. I don't have an issue with downsizing, my parents did it & so will I.
I don't think anyone has suggested pensioners are parasites though?

@Whycangirlsbesonasty

But why do you live alone in a 4 bed house? There is a housing crisis.

Why do you assume four beds? It could be two beds.

@Seasonschange
We are already subsidising people’s wages with UC. If you take away some of the personal allowance you push more people into this poverty bracket which means you have all the admin costs or adding them to the UC pot. Taxing someone to then give them it back through UC is inefficient. It’s something we already do but why do more?

How about the government pays everyone the same max amount of UC so less admin involved in calculating that. Then you adjust the tax free allowance and tax rate to claw that back correctly based on earnings.

I assume all the people who are pensioner bashing on here will of course give up their jobs if their own parents or other relatives need care, rather than burdening the state by sticking them in a care home?

It is not only the elderly who need social care and it is short-sighted to present this as an argument. People with disabilities, children, and anyone in need can benefit from social care.

Furthermore, if adult social care continues to decline, as it is now, it is people of working age who will pick up the shortfall in terms of additional caring responsibilities and reduced opportunities to work.

Brexit, the continuous problem of ridiculously low wages and ridiculously long hours and the government's historical commitment to austerity have all led to this crisis.

I do believe that privatisation for profit and reduction in services under the guise of 'personalisation' have also played their part.

@Whycangirlsbesonasty

But why do you live alone in a 4 bed house? There is a housing crisis.

I don't - I live alone in a 2 bed house. So what if I lived in a 4 bed house though? Why should I only get a 25% discount on counil tax when a family of 4 adults next door gets it cheaper per person?

Just to point out that we pay social care through our council tax, so part of my council tax is towards social care. Can even see how much from local authority.

This is essentially an extra tax and only effects taxpayers. Why don't they just increase council tax accordingly so everyone pays

OP how would it be possible to collect money to cover this if not via income? How can you collect payment from people not working?

Your missing the point re people unhappy with inheritance tax, the main beef is that in most cases the estate has been created by earnings that have airways been taxed and had NI deducted, it’s taxing assets of already taxed income.

You seem a bit negative towards the older generation here…

Do older people begrudge their tax going towards education, maternity, child benefit etc specifically because it doesn’t benefit them at their exact moment in their life? No, it’s incredibly short sighted, if not lacking in empathy to believe the tax you pay should only benefit your own generation.

Why does having a debate about whether the deficit should only come from NI = not having empathy & not wanting to pay tax for others.

As someone accused as a pensioner bashing, all I ask is that all of society pays for social care at a rate commensurate with their income, rather than just those under pension age. Is this so bad?

It’s a tiny amount in the grand scheme of things.

For poorer families who already have squeezed incomes I'm not sure it's tiny.

Social care is like the NHS, a huge black hole money pit where no matter how much is spent it will never be enough.

It is always the people in the middle that are shat on. The rich can afford to fund their own care with no problems, those with nothing get it paid for them whereas the middle have to sell everything they own to pay it.

On a £29,000 salary the 2% hike in NI SJ wants would be £400 a year.

@Dreamstate

Just to point out that we pay social care through our council tax, so part of my council tax is towards social care. Can even see how much from local authority.

This is essentially an extra tax and only effects taxpayers. Why don't they just increase council tax accordingly so everyone pays

Because it's not charged per person. As I've said, I only get a 25% discount for living alone. The house next door with 4 adults in therefore pays less council tax per person. I'm paying more into the pot simply because I live alone. I don't use more services because I live alone. It's not fair in the slightest to increase council tax for social care unless they change it to a charge per adult.

@shouldbeworkingmore so if pensioners live in a modest three bed, what should they downsize to and what will be the benefit to society? A move to a two bed would be more trouble that it's worth. If they move into flats, that will push up the prices of flats to the detriment of younger buyers trying to get on the property ladder. Plus many flats might not be suitable if there are mobility issues. Retirement complexes are madly expensive and a complete rip off and are often a complete nightmare to sell on.