To think the proposed NI increases for social care are unfair?

[shouldbeworkingmore]

I recognise that social care needs funding but think that this proposal unfairly targets the younger generations. Plus we already have income taxes by stealth as the thresh holds have been frozen & wage stagnation is likely to continue for the next decade.

@SinisterBumFacedCat

Do older people begrudge their tax going towards education, maternity, child benefit etc specifically because it doesn’t benefit them at their exact moment in their life? No, it’s incredibly short sighted, if not lacking in empathy to believe the tax you pay should only benefit your own generation.

Yes they definitely begrudge it- who kicked up a stink over the change to child benefit and the ridiculous calculation …no one!

Pay council tax per person? I don’t disagree, but that’s what poll tax tried to do and was unpopular.

@Doubledoorsontogarden

OP how would it be possible to collect money to cover this if not via income?

I would prefer income to NI though?

Your missing the point re people unhappy with inheritance tax, the main beef is that in most cases the estate has been created by earnings that have airways been taxed and had NI deducted, it’s taxing assets of already taxed income.

The issue is so much wealth is tied up in houses, often unrelated to earnings.

My mum and her husband live in a 4 bed house why shouldn’t they? They’ve paid for it (outright) it’s their home has been for many years. They are planning moving but I don’t think forcing our parents out of their homes is going to make a difference to the housing crisis as I can’t afford a 4 bed house down south on part time nurses wages so I think that’s nonsense.

Social are isn’t just care homes for the elderly. It’s care for all, we could all need nursing or social care before we reach pension age, or have child who requires it. We desperately need to put money into social care in this country and if we do it’ll benefit us and our kids in the future. It’s just as important as health care as the 2 overlap and the funding is just not there for sc. I know my mum pays tax still on various things so there will be pensioners still in a position to pay tax and those who can’t won’t. I’m sure there are many people who have never had kids pay council taxes for schools or those who are very healthy who don’t need the nhs until they are older or have an accident. It’s there, that’s the point so when we do need it we are taken care of.

@tattymacduff I'm not saying they should downsize, I just don't think it's a ridiculous notion. My parents & inlaws downsized from 5 beds & 4 beds, they couldn't manage the properties & wanted more money for retirement. I'm not sure why that's a crazy concept.

I don't get it. I really don't.

• We, everyone working, need to contribute more to the whole gamut of social care.
• NI is ringfenced monies specfically for that.
• OP thinks that paying more via NI is somehow unfair

How else should we pay it?
Via general taxation, where it won't be ringfenced?

@Whycangirlsbesonasty

Pay council tax per person? I don’t disagree, but that’s what poll tax tried to do and was unpopular.

Yep - and so this social care increase should not go on council tax as it's quite an unfair tax anyway. A tax on a house - but not the number of occupants in it - that then goes towards local services, it's quite strange really.

I would prefer income to NI though? But only people with an income pay NI!

What on Earth are you arguing?

@caravanman

It is not only the elderly who need social care and it is short-sighted to present this as an argument. People with disabilities, children, and anyone in need can benefit from social care.

Furthermore, if adult social care continues to decline, as it is now, it is people of working age who will pick up the shortfall in terms of additional caring responsibilities and reduced opportunities to work.

Brexit, the continuous problem of ridiculously low wages and ridiculously long hours and the government's historical commitment to austerity have all led to this crisis.

I do believe that privatisation for profit and reduction in services under the guise of 'personalisation' have also played their part.

Yes to all of this.

Some people posting hate against pensioners on this thread may need social care before they reach pension age, or their children might. I wonder if their attitude will change then?

If anyone actually thinks that paying extra tax will result in better pay and conditions for those working in care they are sadly deluded. It should be hardwired into all care contracts issued by local authorities and Health commissioning groups that care staff are required to be paid at Living wage + x in accordance with with their qualifications. If this does not happen the money will go straight into the pockets of the large care providers, such as Care UK increasing their profits.

It is ridiculous that the provision of services for our most weak and vulnerable is in the hands of organisations who have shown time and time again they are only interested in profit.

NI is NOT ringfenced! Hasn’t been for years! It’s just another tax!

We will all benefit from it our later stage of life.

I also completely agree that if we're going to pay more NI - then social care should no longer be privatised at all. Why should we all pay more to then just line the pockets of private companies?!

My mum and her husband live in a 4 bed house why shouldn’t they? They’ve paid for it (outright) it’s their home has been for many years. They are planning moving but I don’t think forcing our parents out of their homes is going to make a difference to the housing crisis as I can’t afford a 4 bed house down south on part time nurses wages so I think that’s nonsense why should I in a 3 bed house as max capacity pay for your parents care whilst they sit on their asset ?

[quote shouldbeworkingmore]@tattymacduff I'm not saying they should downsize, I just don't think it's a ridiculous notion. My parents & inlaws downsized from 5 beds & 4 beds, they couldn't manage the properties & wanted more money for retirement. I'm not sure why that's a crazy concept. [/quote]
It isn't a crazy concept if people WANT to do it. Forcing them to do it by punative council taxation or other means is.

i We will all benefit from it our later stage of life.

Not really. Not everyone needs social care, thank God. No-one in my family has every needed to be in a home apart from for very short periods for medical care.

I agree with you OP.
Workers probably won't see any benefit this is just to plug the immediate crisis gap now.
Increase income tax by 1%. Then wealthy pendioners will pay too and they are the ones who will statistically benefit most from better care and health care.
Younger people are already paying off student loans. This is a blatantly regressive tax - Tories love those - so I'm not really surprised.

Wages have not stagnated at all. I've had a £12500 pay rise since December - by moving jobs. People in IT are demanding and receiving 25%-30% rises to keep up with food inflation.
Of course the tax brackets won't move so most of us will be in the 40% tax bracket by Christmas at this rate !

The issue is that the social care system needs re-imagining. The emphasis should be upon prevention, rather than intervention at point of excessive need. Of course, you have a tier of vulnerable people who have high needs and require a complex response BUT I would say the majority of people can be supported to prevent, delay or reduce their needs from escalating by making healthier lifestyle choices, becoming more engaged in their communities, preventing social isolation and the attendant mental health problems that run alongside it. There needs to be more tailored condition-specific support from a charitable perspective - primarily dealing with those low-level needs such as social isolation and periodic dips in mental health or physical health - which if left unattended rapidly develop into higher-level needs which warrant a funded care package.

I work in Adult Social Care and I see so many people coming through to us at point of crisis, when their needs were perfectly manageable less than a year ago.

In fact, it is now a key part of the Care Act (Prevent, Reduce, Delay agendas.)

But only people with an income pay NI!

Not everyone with an income pays NI though?

@OnlyFoolsnMothers

Because we couldn’t afford to, we had to go to work.

University may have been free and, if you qualified, you got a small grant but nowhere near enough to pay your living expenses. Working class parents couldn’t afford to subsidise their children through Uni.

I know that as a working class girl I was actively discouraged by my school from aiming for University, although my grades would almost certainly have been good enough. It was something that ‘people like me’ just didn’t do 🤷🏻‍♀️

why should I in a 3 bed house as max capacity pay for your parents care whilst they sit on their asset?

@OnlyFoolsnMothers but you won't pay as if both parents or one surviving parent require residential care the house will have to be sold to pay for it.

If you or your partner or children become disabled, would you be willing to downsize to pay for your/their care?

@flashbac

First of all social care SHOULD NOT be provided by profit seeking private sector companies. Then I might consider it fair to fork out more. Inheritance tax needs to rise first as well IMHO.

Inheritance tax is already 40%!!!

I do think downsizing needs encouraging via taxation, lots of widows by us staring out the window all day, not knowing what day it is whilst their money goes on cleaners, gardeners, maintenance companies for their 5 bedroomed detached houses in the catchment areas for great schools. It's not right whilst children are growing up in houses you couldn't swing a cat in.

Wages have not stagnated at all

I was talking statistically

fullfact.org/economy/employment-since-2010-wages/