To think the proposed NI increases for social care are unfair?

[shouldbeworkingmore]

I recognise that social care needs funding but think that this proposal unfairly targets the younger generations. Plus we already have income taxes by stealth as the thresh holds have been frozen & wage stagnation is likely to continue for the next decade.

@Blossomtoes

think the public fell hook line and sinker for the atriums and shiny new hospitals and fudged waiting list targets, and it's only becoming apparent as years pass and people need the NHS that it's not fit for purpose

The waiting lists weren’t fudged. The stats are freely available. The improvement in the first decade of this century was massive, to say otherwise is Tory propaganda. The deterioration has happened in the last ten years, thanks to austerity.

Yep, the rot set in with Lansley's reforms (which cost approx £1.5 billion).

Absolutely @Claudethecat. There’s a special corner of hell reserved for that bastard.

I hope so, Blossom.

Can I just say I learnt a very interesting thing this evening.

50% of the social care budget goes on supporting physically and mentally disabled working age adults, not pensioners. That's anyone who has additional needs who was born with a disability, has had a life changing event, or otherwise has need of assistance and care from social services.

Not a purely generational issue then.

Cousin marriage migrant communities is leading to increased levels of children born with additional needs. Also women choosing to have children later in life is increasing demand on some sections of social care.

www.theguardian.com/society/2019/feb/15/cousin-marriages-cited-as-significant-factor-bradford-child-deaths

@BigWoollyJumpers - Over 65’s Accoubts got 18% of the population but over 50% of spending? This gets more start as the SGS go up.

NI has now been extended to older workers. However there are several ways around it if you are self employed. You just increase your allowable expenses inline.

Also women choosing to have children later in life is increasing demand on some sections of social care.

Why single out women? It's now known that older fathers are a risk factor for various health and disability issues that might require care needs. And men have children older than women do. It's also swings and roundabouts with older mothers. If they had their child younger, before established financially, they'd have to rely on state help. Also there's the fact that many women don't choose. It's often the men that want to wait.

@BigWoollyJumpers

Can I just say I learnt a very interesting thing this evening.

50% of the social care budget goes on supporting physically and mentally disabled working age adults, not pensioners. That's anyone who has additional needs who was born with a disability, has had a life changing event, or otherwise has need of assistance and care from social services.

Not a purely generational issue then.

Presumably a group that is also less likely to have income and assets that councils can claw back in contributions to care (I know many young adults will pay towards their care but may not be home owners or have an income on a par with an occupational pension).

If governments tackled the public health housing and homelessness emergency, perhaps more couples would have children younger - if they knew they could access affordable stable homes. We'd also have more state money in the pot. Homelessness currently costs the taxpayer many billions. Direct costs like the billions on expensive temporary accommodation, and also indirect costs from the knock on impact of insecure housing. Criminal justice system, NHS, mental health, social services. Stable homes = stable families and stable communities = more cohesive society.

@the80sweregreat

I've nothing at all against care homes workers or people that work and pay their taxes! The ones I have a problem with are the ones that manage to hide their wealth or get away without paying for anything. That is all

the80sweregreat

I get exactly what you've been saying, and you're right.

They're good though aren't they? The ones with the real money and assets, who won't be selling their homes to pay for care and who will be able to leave an inheritance to their families (who need it less than those who won't get anything). They'll keep on using their legal avoidance schemes, whilst they've got the 'plebs' fighting amongst themselves over the scraps. Divide and rule.

We're one the world's richest countries. Apparently. Or so they say whenever there's a vastly unpopular with the majority of the public spending plan. A rich country...yet no money for the vulnerable - social care, mental health, the NHS, in fact all public services. And a serious public health housing and homelessness emergency. Not so rich afterall. Or the money's going to the wrong places.

Meanwhile, I bet MPs - on their taxpayer (state) funded gold plated pensions and private healthcare (because they have so much faith in the NHS) won't have to sell their homes to pay for care.

There's another way. Smoking. It's a net gain. Taxes paid more than cover smoking related healthcare - and smokers statistically more likely to die younger. Therefore lower pension and social care costs.

@Tealightsandd

There's another way. Smoking. It's a net gain. Taxes paid more than cover smoking related healthcare - and smokers statistically more likely to die younger. Therefore lower pension and social care costs.

Apparently not:

ash.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Economics-of-Tobacco.pdf

www.publicfinance.co.uk/news/2017/08/smoking-and-drinking-save-public-purse-money

We're told repeatedly that smokers are more likely to die younger. How is that not saving money? It saves huge amounts of pension and social care costs. Add in the massive tax revenue, and smoking is a boost to the public purse.

The ASH report refers to premature deaths from smoking. It fails to explain what that means. The huge savings on pension and social care costs.

From the link I posted above:

The Smoking and the Public Purse report argues that the government spends £3.6bn treating smoking-related diseases on the NHS and up to £1bn collecting cigarette butts and extinguishing smoking-related house fires.

The government saves £9.8bn annually in pension, healthcare and other benefit payments due to premature mortality, the IEA said.

Meanwhile, the government brings in £9.5bn a year in duty paid on tobacco, the IEA said. Suggesting this means smoking produces a net saving to public finances of £14.7bn a year, at current rates of consumption.

50% of the social care budget goes on supporting physically and mentally disabled working age adults, not pensioners

That’s because most pensioners pay for themselves. The bar is insanely high for state funded care for pensioners, a lot of them aren’t getting the care they need.

The new 1.25% social charge applies even to 90 year olds who have employed or self employed. Here was I thinking at long last after having paid it and worked full timem without a break in 1983 NI would stop when I reached age 67 even though I will work full time until I die as only have a state pension which will be taxed at my highest rate.... just as I am on the verge of getting something from this state it goes eg age 60 state pension is now right up to age 67. Free tube later this year (age 60) cannot use as Khan made masks compulsory.

It is not correct that the self employed can evade tax and NI just be lying about expenses. You can go to prison if you do that. Many of us self employed pay much more income tax and NI than PAYE employees.

@Xenia

The new 1.25% social charge applies even to 90 year olds who have employed or self employed. Here was I thinking at long last after having paid it and worked full timem without a break in 1983 NI would stop when I reached age 67 even though I will work full time until I die as only have a state pension which will be taxed at my highest rate.... just as I am on the verge of getting something from this state it goes eg age 60 state pension is now right up to age 67. Free tube later this year (age 60) cannot use as Khan made masks compulsory.

It is not correct that the self employed can evade tax and NI just be lying about expenses. You can go to prison if you do that. Many of us self employed pay much more income tax and NI than PAYE employees.

You need to get yourself a better accountant if avoiding putting yourself through PAYE is costing you more money!

You must be the only self employed person in the country who pays more tax than if you were on PAYE @Xenia. As a pp says, you need a better accountant!

I am just honest and I lose my whole career as a lawyer if I cheat expenses. Also the average UK pay on PAYE is about £26k and I earn more than that so obviously I pay mre tax. Also what are my expenses? I have worked fro home sin 1994 and don't employ anyone. I have some legal insurance which is compulsory. I buy paper but there is not much else even a clever accountant could find lawfully within the tax rules. Same for many barristers too except in their cases they often have to pay their clerk and chambers fairly large sums as the work out of chambers not from home on the whole.

@Xenia

I am just honest and I lose my whole career as a lawyer if I cheat expenses. Also the average UK pay on PAYE is about £26k and I earn more than that so obviously I pay mre tax. Also what are my expenses? I have worked fro home sin 1994 and don't employ anyone. I have some legal insurance which is compulsory. I buy paper but there is not much else even a clever accountant could find lawfully within the tax rules. Same for many barristers too except in their cases they often have to pay their clerk and chambers fairly large sums as the work out of chambers not from home on the whole.

We run our own business and we do everything by the book, including paying the taxes due on our business and we are advised to take dividends rather than full salary because we pay less tax - it’s not shady or dishonest and it’s what your accountant should be advising you to do - unless they are a bit rubbish at their job or you are like the lead singer of the Housemartins who begs his accountant not to save him tax as he wants to pay more!

or you are like the lead singer of the Housemartins who begs his accountant not to save him tax as he wants to pay more!

As if! I’ve never come across anyone who resents paying tax more than Xenia!

@Blossomtoes

or you are like the lead singer of the Housemartins who begs his accountant not to save him tax as he wants to pay more!

As if! I’ve never come across anyone who resents paying tax more than Xenia!

Which begs the question why is she paying more?

To be fair from 2023 our company will be paying an extra 1.25% in Employer NI contributions for our employees, then an extra 5% on Corporations Tax on our profits and then an extra 1.25% on dividends from the profits. Not sure what the actual total percentage increase we'll be paying but the increase will be more for small business owner directors than the increase for employees. Who'd have thought it from the Tories?! Note I am not moaning - our public services are a disgrace, it's clear we need to pay more.

then an extra 5% on Corporations Tax on our profits

6% no? It's going up from 19% to 25% except for the tiniest firms/one person bands. Or to look at it another way, a 31.5% increase in the absolute amount you'll pay.

I can’t find up to date information but the last survey I saw showed that less than 10% of the working population continued in work after state retirement age and the majority who do, are in part time and lower paid roles. Putting National Insurance on post retirement salaries isn’t going to be a huge source of revenue for government?