To think school uniform policy should be enforced?

[Runoverbyllamas]

Otherwise what’s the point?
Why bother to have a uniform, state it in detail online and in welcome packs, and then say nothing when kids aren’t wearing correct uniform?
We’re talking a state school with nothing needing to be logo, supermarket brands are fine and the colours are easily available.

A friend has had enough because she made sure her kids were dressed correctly and then others in the class were wearing leggings, trainers, wrong colours etc, and her kids were getting cross about it. On approaching the Head all she got was ‘be glad you can afford to get the correct uniform’. The kids who hadn’t were in premium brands ffs! Plus my friend actually saved to make sure she had the right things, she doesn’t have a lot of money to spare.
The school PTA also does preloved at very small cost to parents, so there’s just no excuse.
One of the more annoying parents of the kids in trainers told her that ‘PFB doesn’t like school shoes’ as if that’s a good enough reason.
This has been going on for at least a year now, and friend is getting more and more frustrated that nothing is being addressed.

AIBU?

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland

But it doesn't work like that when the rules you are enforcing are stupid

Plenty of people don't think uniform rules are stupid. Millions upon millions of adult jobs have uniforms or clothing rules - offices, retail, cafes, armed forces, emergency services, medical, fitness/gyms. Much of what childhood is all about is preparation for adulthood. In the past children didnt spend every minute of their time playing, they would have been with adults learning important skills & social rules in preparation for adulthood. This is the modern day equivalent.

Yes, ADULT jobs. Adult. This is mainly to identify the personnel of that company.

Some of the rules for uniform in schools are just ridiculous. Children should be able to learn without the stress of worrying they haven't got the right trousers on today because they got dirty and mum wasn't able to get them washed and dried in time.
As long as the kids turn up for school and ready to learn, that's the main point of it. Not preventing that exact thing because of what brand of shoe they are wearing.

@IWantT0BreakFree

I work in a school. I think uniform is extremely important. It's a leveller and helps to disguise the huge disparity between the haves and the have-nots. Our school is shite at enforcing uniform and it's heartbreaking to see the social struggles that some of the kids have as a result. On the one hand, it's a symptom and not the root of the problem I.e. those children who are excluding others on the basis of how "uncool" they are need to actually learn to be less shallow, less judgemental, less materialistic and more accepting and kind. On the other hand, having a uniform policy (which is upheld) is one easy way for schools to help reduce the impact of the wealth gap during the school day. It's the low hanging fruit. I appreciate that there's an argument that uniform stifles creativity, but I see little creativity from the families who flout the uniform rules. Those children are generally identikit copies with the same expensive branded leggings, sportswear, trainers etc. It's not the kids with hand-me-downs and Asda trainers for PE who are desperate to wear their own clothes.

Biggest load of tripe I've read today.

And for what its worth, I can afford to buy uniform and my dc go to school in uniform.

But I note one of them does currently have asda trainers and all have had hand me downs from cousins (and each other) before now! (Isn't that normal?)

But thanks for judging them as probably having social struggles and neglected, based on those things.

@Sprogonthetyne

No offence taken, sorry if my post came across like I was, I totally agree with what you said because my DD had friends in some of those situations, and although we didn't have a lot, one of them took to staying here on a Friday night because she got her uniform washed alongside my DDs and a meal, which I'm not at all sure she got at home all the time.
I just wanted to point out to some of the others on this thread that have decided that people who struggle to provide uniform consistently aren't feckless and buying £100 trainers or just want to buck the system, but as ever, having little money gives less options that others people take for granted. And punishing kids for any of those things, which more than my DDs old school do, makes a mockery of this 'uniform is a great leveller' argument.
💐🍷

@maverickess

Totally agree, anyone saying supermarket uniform is "inexpensive" or "easily available" has never had to balance a budget to the penny just to get by.

I went all the way through primary school only owned 3 school jumpers (1 at a time, lasting 2/3 years). If I split beans down in on Monday it was going to be a cold week, despite having other warm clothes at home. Because aparently freezing in a polo in December made me more "level" then wereing a different coloured jumper.

@pointythings, I'd go along with much of your list except I'd suggest that being able to continue to wear the old uniform shouldn't be limited to those in the final year, it should be possible throughout the school, bearing in mind that some families need to be able to reuse uniform for younger children. The rules should also require schools to allow for a side choice of freely available colours, e.g. not insist on black trousers with no discretion to opt for grey. That way, even if they do have children in a range of uniforms when they move to a new uniform, it won't be that noticeable anyway.

Love the Ofsted sanction. In fact, I think Ofsted should build this into the inspection framework anyway, because a school that excludes lower income children and children with disabilities by rigid draconian uniform rules requiring expensive clothes is by definition failing.

my friend actually saved to make sure she had the right things, she doesn’t have a lot of money to spare. That is really sad that have to scrimp and save to buy school uniform - the whole uniform system is crazy. We had a very strict state school uniform anyone stepping out of line with even a hair clip had hell rain down on them - totally disproportionate. Your friend will eventually be bloody glad that her kids go to a school with a human approach to dressing.

Look we all know that in the vast majority of cases, the school with shit discipline, unenforced rules and parents who don’t give a crap are not exactly producing great results. They’re typically sink schools where children come from deprived backgrounds, but the entire education they get just reinforces that with low expectations, low results and no chance of getting anywhere in life.

Well, no, we don't. Look at, for instance, Finland, widely regarded as one of the most successful education systems around - no uniform. The same is true of numerous schools all over Europe. Look at St Paul's Girl's School (92.4% A and A* in A levels last year) - no uniform. Look at the various examples cited on this thread.

It’s why you have schools like Michaela, with educators who say actually children from deprived backgrounds CAN get top results with a bit of discipline and parental buy-in. The kids they take would have no future in sink schools but see a whole world of opportunity opened to them

I really wouldn't go down the Michaela route if I were you. Practices that really don't bear close scrutiny in relation to SEN and discipline policies, and the jury is very much out on how their products fare out in the big wide world without, shall we say, such a very prescriptive form of education.

This again??

Yes they should enforce the uniform. It teaches respect and being in a team. Lots of employers have a uniform or policy on what is acceptable.

It's not a fashion show. Some kids would get bullied for not having the latest whatever because parents couldn't afford it. Having a uniform makes everyone equal.

Having a uniform makes everyone equal😂😂😂😂

I was bullied because we couldn't afford the correct uniform at high school.
I had the latest trainers ( on some kind of god awful credit payment plan) but that wasn't an option for uniform

Is the school otherwise good?

I do sometimes find that if the school won't enforce simple rules like uniforms it usually means they also won't enforce good behaviour in lessons. In my experience (teacher) it usually denotes a SLT who sweep stuff under the carpet and let things go. It isn't a good sign.

My son has sensory issues and simply wouldn't cope with the top button done up or a tie, there's no official diagnosis yet as the assessment period was a min of 18 months prior to Covid.

His school accept this and focus on the things that actually matter rather than push him out .

He's also gone in his PE joggers as his trousers weren't dry- dryer broke. Is keeping him at home for a day really better?

He also went to school in colourful trainers as his new school shoes gave him blisters.

If its primary, I really think it doesn't matter.
DS2 seems to have got away with wearing black trainers throughout primary school.
If school insisted he would have to wear shoes, but tbh I think trainers are more appropriate for primary school.

My DC primary school had an amazing head. She wasn't really interested in a school uniform. Some parents put pressure on and eventually the head relented (a little) and arranged a uniform but it was optional. I would say about 5% wore a uniform. It was a great school with fab teachers. I personally never bothered with the uniform.

@trumpisagit

Trainers are certainly not suitable for any school imo.

Schools are professional environments, which means smart black shoes should be worn.

Sounds like a great school, I’m sure all the pupils will do well in life

YABU.
Not your circus, not your monkeys.
Your friend is welcome to find another school where uniforms would be more up to her taste.

Ok, this got more fraught than I expected.
To answer some questions, the school is a secondary.
And yes it is my friend and not me. She moved away during the lockdown. Kids moved school. The website and school paperwork stated very clearly what uniform was required, and that they expected it to be worn correctly as it was all widely available from a range of shops, secondhand was available too, and should it not be correct the kids would face sanctions (unspecified).

She went to a huge amount of effort to get it all given they were moving mid year and had a lot of other expenses in moving. The colours were not the same as anyone local so without knowing people and not wanting the kids to stick out when they were new, she bought it all new. Then it turns out that a huge number of kids are wearing whatever without any consequence. She ignored initially as covid made things hard for many, but then the school stated that proper uniform was needed for the new school year. And the same kids are back in, with apparently brand new expensive trainers and clothing, and the Head doesn’t seem to care. I find it hard to believe that many have sensory issues if I’m honest. They’re just chancing their arm.

It’s the lack of care, the lack of backing her up as a parent, and the blatant rule breaking that’s the concern. Kids don’t get to pick and choose which school rules they follow.
I don’t know the kids, the school, the Head. My own experience is that rules are enforced. I just wondered what the point in having the rules is in the first place if that’s how they want to play it. She spent over £300 on uniform for 2 kids that they are now getting cross about wearing, and she doesn’t buy fancy brands that would be acceptable to these other kids. At least if there is a policy it should be followed. That’s the point.

Far from enforcing it, I think it should be gone. It's an unnecessary custom, especially when policed to the nth degree as it is in so many secondary school, and many nations with higher literacy and numeracy achievement than the UK manage perfectly well without it.

If parents are too wet to tell their kids they'll have to get weekend jobs if they want expensive, branded gear - which was the condition my parents handed down to me - it's their own lookout.

So your friend massively overpaid for uniform, and as a result her kids don't have other important stuff. And kids are now resentful.
The point is that the school uniform isn't that important at the end of the day.

£300 for 2 kids isn’t especially massive, but it was money she didn’t easily have and that the school seemed to insist she spend. She and the kids didn’t even get inside the place before they started due to covid restrictions so could only go by policy. I find that incredibly unfair.

They should just ditch the policy. That’s my view. She can’t afford the pricey gear anyway but now they have the uniform they need to wear it. She would just like a bit of back up on that. I don’t think that’s too much to ask tbh.

[quote GreenLakes]@trumpisagit

Trainers are certainly not suitable for any school imo.

Schools are professional environments, which means smart black shoes should be worn.[/quote]
I have no words.

I am a professional, and until lockdown was working in a professional environment. Nobody, but nobody wore 'smart black shoes'. We were all great at our jobs. Uniforms have their place - in healthcare, the police and possibly supermarkets. In many other work environments, dress codes are being relaxed and culture is changing towards one where it matters less what you wear and more how competent you are. And about time too.

Surely it's really sensible for children to wear trainers? They're pretty active people who do best with a rough and tumble approach to life.

Even schools know children need to be active. Eg my dd's school had a big initiative to get everyone walk there and run a mile around the playground in laps at breaktime. But they were all wearing dress shoes! Like wtaf?

GreenLakes
@trumpisagit
Trainers are certainly not suitable for any school imo.

Of course they are. Especially suitable for boys who play football at break.

Schools are professional environments, which means smart black shoes should be worn.

Small children are professionals? Who knew! Would you care to say what profession they are following?

Schools are professional environments, which means smart black shoes should be worn.

There is no logical need for kids to look like office rats.