To not want an awake child around at 11pm when I'm on holiday PART DEUX

[FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop]

First thread

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/amiibeingunreasonable/4332702-to-not-want-an-awake-child-around-at-11pm-when-i-m-on-holiday

@torchh
I thought I was missing something too!
I didn't have the will to get past the first page.
Load of drivel 😂

@torchh have PM'd you too

@FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop Alyssa hits the other side a millisecond before anyone else and it's "I win!". DD keeps saying, deadpan, "it's not a competition though"

Kids can be really perceptive can’t they ? Sounds as though your DD got the measure of A very quickly !! I meant it lightheartedly, but it’s actually quite sad because, if something doesn’t change, A is going to be a horrible adult.

My only suggestion is to do a weekend with just you two. No kids, if you want to continue the friendship.

Your daughter sounds brilliant BTW

Lol OP at your DD "why does Alyssa have completions no one else competes in" She has the measure of Alyssa already!! Time for a debrief at home about how good your DCs were to go to bed like asked and that it was tiring that Alyssa didn't go to bed on the mummies. As you didn't get a relax, with adult time, which makes a rested and happier mummy. I'd be buying my DCs a treat once home for their good behaviour on holiday.

You be e been very patient and a good friend to be so chill and not say anything.

Next step: conquer my fear of a single parent holiday with just my kids and no adult company. I could guilt trip my sister into going with me but I really think this is a lesson learned about doing it alone.

Good plan OP as you found out it doesn't follow that going with another parent and their Dc will mean you get any quiet civilised adult time together if they parent differently. It'll be the first question you ask about bedtimes and what they'd do if their DC got up, if you ever choose to holiday with another family again.

I've had holidays like this and regretted wasting my holiday money and precious AL on a situ where the other parents who don't parent with boundaries.

I've had play date sleepovers with DCs who won't go to bed or at least chatter with the other DCs from bed, the whole point of sleepover- but insist on adult company and whine as mummy lets them watch TV downstairs with her (well I wish mummy had told me that .. then CF mummy does tell me that next day and how they don't get invited to many sleepovers ... ) (Do it once and no one more sleepovers for you at mine! )

This time next year though OP, you may have long term relationship of another adult (bf) to go away with. So there always that...

Can you wear the kid out? Lots of running races (as she loves them so much) hiking up hills, swimming? Why the fuck isn't she tired when the other kids are?!

This would drive me insane. I love my friends kids but at adult time my friends are the ones i want to catch up with! Thankfully most of my friends feel similarly. There are some i really wouldn't consider going away with.

Also fingers crossed your friend isn't telling other friends about her trip away for them to say 'oh that's funny your holiday reminds me of a thread i read on MN'

Ah, new ideas in school discipline policies. The gentle parent skills that now operate in the classroom. It seems that pretty much all schools have now bought into this.

Child is a bully, disruptive, non cooperative? No worries. Just allow the child to have a time out (actually many, many time outs), while they go off with the behaviour team or a member of SLT for a nice chat, a swing in the staff member's comfy chair and a hot chocolate so they can talk about how horrible Mrs Teacher is being so mean making him/her listen in silence whilst instructions are given to the class and the - dear God - expecting him/ her to produce some written work without kicking the student in front of them or shouting out every ten seconds.

In fact, give the child a laminated pass so that they can work the system more efficiently. The child knows the rules of the behaviour system better than any lawyer, so they will stay in class for as long as possible, getting all of the attention they crave. They will work their way through the numerous warnings and pre warnings (X, if you shout in my face again I will give you a warning. X you were told that if you did that again you would be one a warning, so this is your first warning - this has to be repeated THREE times with time in between to allow the child time to reflect and adjust their behaviour). They know they have a right to go through each of these steps before they can finally be ejected and earn behaviour points on their record.

The child knows that as they finally reach the very end of the process that they can trump all of this with the laminated card. Off they toddle, grinning at their mates to have a nice chat and a hot chocolate. leaving behind a disrupted lesson, a frazzled teacher and many disgruntled kids. It's not long before a whole stream of kids are lining up for their own laminated card.

We holidayed with good friends when all our DDs were under 4. It was misery. Our DDs were kept to their usual routine and were fed, bathed, bottle + story and tucked up in bed by 7pm. Their DDs were still 'being put to bed' at 10.00pm, with our friends tag teaming all evening - going in to them, fetching drinks, yet another story, lying on their beds with them etc. Every evening was totally disrupted like this. DH and I were just

We never holidayed with them again, obviously.

Teaching children to be well mannered and to behave appropriately in social situations requires a lot of effort and patience. Lots of parents can't be bothered and just do whatever it takes to make the next 15 minutes of their lives easier. That's fine, if that what works for them - but they can't expect others to endure the results of their feeble parenting.

This time next year though OP, you may have long term relationship of another adult (bf) to go away with. So there always that...

Ah that's a whole other thread, my DD took the split with their dad really hard (DS was 2 and doesn't remember) and although they've met THREE of exH's girlfriends I want them to have me to themselves for as long as possible. I asked my friend the other night when we FINALLY got an adult night if she thinks I can keep my relationship with my boyfriend and my relationship with my kids completely separate and it was a really helpful conversation so I did get something out the holiday at least!

Haven’t read the full thread because can’t be arsed but my god OP you are quite self congratulatory about you and your ‘deadpan’ daughter, aren’t you? Why haven’t you just told your friend straight up what you want/need out of your holiday, and why on Earth are you worried about taking your kids away by yourself next time? All this tiptoeing around why you don’t want to go again next year is nonsense.

@amillionmenonmars

Ah, new ideas in school discipline policies. The gentle parent skills that now operate in the classroom. It seems that pretty much all schools have now bought into this.

Child is a bully, disruptive, non cooperative? No worries. Just allow the child to have a time out (actually many, many time outs), while they go off with the behaviour team or a member of SLT for a nice chat, a swing in the staff member's comfy chair and a hot chocolate so they can talk about how horrible Mrs Teacher is being so mean making him/her listen in silence whilst instructions are given to the class and the - dear God - expecting him/ her to produce some written work without kicking the student in front of them or shouting out every ten seconds.

In fact, give the child a laminated pass so that they can work the system more efficiently. The child knows the rules of the behaviour system better than any lawyer, so they will stay in class for as long as possible, getting all of the attention they crave. They will work their way through the numerous warnings and pre warnings (X, if you shout in my face again I will give you a warning. X you were told that if you did that again you would be one a warning, so this is your first warning - this has to be repeated THREE times with time in between to allow the child time to reflect and adjust their behaviour). They know they have a right to go through each of these steps before they can finally be ejected and earn behaviour points on their record.

The child knows that as they finally reach the very end of the process that they can trump all of this with the laminated card. Off they toddle, grinning at their mates to have a nice chat and a hot chocolate. leaving behind a disrupted lesson, a frazzled teacher and many disgruntled kids. It's not long before a whole stream of kids are lining up for their own laminated card.

This is spot on!! Are you a teacher?

This is why I'd rather die than teach primary. Discipline and consequences are far more structured in secondary school and I couldn't in good conscience have a chat "unpacking" behaviour with a manipulative 10yo who just thumped a little girl

Bloody hell, that girl sounds draining! Have you thought about suggesting you put all the children to bed tonight and make sure Alyssa knows she's to stay put?

I used to know a ‘3breakfasts’ and an ‘Alyssa’
The end of our friendship began after this particular Alyssa threw a wobbler one day (age11!) and refused to get dressed for a planned full day out (2 fun parts to the day morning and afternoon, both of which this Alyssa wanted to go to weirdly). this wobbler ended in her kicking the shit out of her bedroom door and screaming and her mum. It was ridiculous.

Friend was in actual tears saying to me she doesn’t know what to do and so finally, after watching her DD act this way for years due to being ‘gently’ ineffectually parented, I said something.

I cancelled what we had planned for the afternoon (my DD happily went to morning session while this unfolded) and said that since my friend couldn’t do it, I was going to be the rock and the hard place for her DD. I was going to issue a consequence for her child by cancelling the later fun thing I knew she’d want us to go to with her. Friend was aghast and tried to persuade me not to. She argued that her DD would calm down by then and would want to go to the afternoon session but I said, I’m not condoning your DD’s behaviour and don’t want my DD thinking you can behave that way in a morning and still get treats in an afternoon. Luckily my DD was fine and understood that the cancellation of the fun afternoon was her friends fault.

After that my friend cooled towards me and before long her DD was trying to bully mine. Luckily my DD’s other friends shut it down fast and not long after that ‘Alyssa’ left the school as she couldn’t cope with school rules, doing as she was told, getting up and dressed etc.

It was sad to watch but I don’t regret finally saying something as to be honest, watching her ‘gently’ raise a self entitled brat wasn’t much fun. God help that child when she eventually needs a job.

@Glugglejug

Haven’t read the full thread because can’t be arsed but my god OP you are quite self congratulatory about you and your ‘deadpan’ daughter, aren’t you? Why haven’t you just told your friend straight up what you want/need out of your holiday, and why on Earth are you worried about taking your kids away by yourself next time? All this tiptoeing around why you don’t want to go again next year is nonsense.

I've explained why - how do you tell a friend they're a shit parent when they haven't asked for advice? Better to button it.

Although I might broach it tonight if we get an adult night in a "you can't go on like this 3breakfasts, you deserve to relax on a night" kind of way

And am I supposed to be self deprecating about me and my DD? No - we are both pretty awesome I'd rather promote self love

@Hellodarknessmyoldpal Also fingers crossed your friend isn't telling other friends about her trip away for them to say 'oh that's funny your holiday reminds me of a thread i read on MN'

🤣🤣🤣

Might be a good thing - friend might learn something if she reads both threads !!

Can't wait to see what tonight's escapades will be I reckon alyssa will excel herself in her antics haha

I used to hate going on holidays with my parents friends as very rarely were we children also friends!

But the 'Me first' and 'I win' reminds me of a dreadful week spent by the sea with friends who had 3 DDS all around my age. I think we were around 12-9 years. That family were SO competitive. It was unbelievable! We had cometitive pictionary FFS. My DDad and I were about it, but my mother got sadly in touch with her inner competitor and the final day of the trip culminated in the two mothers trying to outdo each other with competitive tea towel and sock ironing.

@Ukholidaysaregreat

Ed Balls and Yvette Cooper

That was my first thought too

I don’t think this has anything to do with ‘gentle parenting’ at all. Your friend seems to want to set boundaries.

She is obviously struggling with managing the bedtime routine. Her oldest daughter is only 8 and seeks attention and reassurance- there will be reasons for this. Every family has their own way of doing things, your friend doesn’t seem to have it all sussed out like you do, but it appears she wants to.

Everyone can get frustrated with their friends and family, everyone is entitled to have a bitch and a moan. But the way you have taken glee in it, ridiculed your friend and even started a second thread is just nasty.

She is clearly not as resilient and self assured as you are. You actually come across as smug, judgemental and lacking in empathy.

@amillionmenonmars

Ah, new ideas in school discipline policies. The gentle parent skills that now operate in the classroom. It seems that pretty much all schools have now bought into this.

Child is a bully, disruptive, non cooperative? No worries. Just allow the child to have a time out (actually many, many time outs), while they go off with the behaviour team or a member of SLT for a nice chat, a swing in the staff member's comfy chair and a hot chocolate so they can talk about how horrible Mrs Teacher is being so mean making him/her listen in silence whilst instructions are given to the class and the - dear God - expecting him/ her to produce some written work without kicking the student in front of them or shouting out every ten seconds.

In fact, give the child a laminated pass so that they can work the system more efficiently. The child knows the rules of the behaviour system better than any lawyer, so they will stay in class for as long as possible, getting all of the attention they crave. They will work their way through the numerous warnings and pre warnings (X, if you shout in my face again I will give you a warning. X you were told that if you did that again you would be one a warning, so this is your first warning - this has to be repeated THREE times with time in between to allow the child time to reflect and adjust their behaviour). They know they have a right to go through each of these steps before they can finally be ejected and earn behaviour points on their record.

The child knows that as they finally reach the very end of the process that they can trump all of this with the laminated card. Off they toddle, grinning at their mates to have a nice chat and a hot chocolate. leaving behind a disrupted lesson, a frazzled teacher and many disgruntled kids. It's not long before a whole stream of kids are lining up for their own laminated card.

I'm a Primary teacher and this is absolute bollocks.

I feel for teachers. I got a phone call about my 'spirited' teens behaviour. Teacher was audibly surprised at my reaction

Clearly all the other parents he'd phoned followed the gentle parenting approach

I gave them permission to give him detention at lunch time & suggested the punishment they were planning wasn't enough 😂

Op, I've been in similar situations with extended family holidays. We just took our drinks off & left them to discuss crap with a pre schooler 😂

I must say, i can’t believe this post is a two parter...

@MsTSwift

We had a weekend break with 6 other families which was fab. Kids were upstairs watching a film to be fair until my dd then about 8 came down to say the only child of two high powered politicians had shoved her off a bed hard and unprovoked. They were too old for toddler shoving and dd was outraged.

Kid came down and admitted it and parents gentle parented her. Our dd usually extremely polite says loudly to the whole group “I cannot believe I have been shoved off a bed and the parents have done nothing about it”. The high powered parents sat there wetly having had their crap parenting called out by an 8 year old😁

This is amazing, first-class MN bragging. I can't work out if you're serious or a parody, but either way do you give lessons?

[quote Rosscameasdoody]**@FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop* Alyssa hits the other side a millisecond before anyone else and it's "I win!". DD keeps saying, deadpan, "it's not a competition though"*

Kids can be really perceptive can’t they ? Sounds as though your DD got the measure of A very quickly !! I meant it lightheartedly, but it’s actually quite sad because, if something doesn’t change, A is going to be a horrible adult.[/quote]
This is so true

My youngest and middle DCs both had a friend like this. Who we found ways to limit time with as they were not easy to have for extended time or on sleepovers. Both are quite difficult entitled teenagers now. All bc their parents didn't step in earlier . I used to say we'll go separately on this bc DD doesn't want to race, she just wants to have fun and play.

My eldest DS used to try to turn everything into a competition - he got told many times, "it's not a competition today. We're not at school sports day. We are playing, cut out the boasting buddie or no one will enjoy playing with you - besides you're bigger!! Be kind "

My middle DC has the measure of her brother, "Mum, Ds is being a competition bore again!" . We didn't try to change his personality (which is naturally competitive) but get him to think about when it was appropriate or not. No one will play monopoly with him as he's awful when playing it. He can control his comletetiveness now when playing kick around or rugby in garden with his friends or sisters or other board games. But monopoly is one of his few triggers now