To not want an awake child around at 11pm when I'm on holiday PART DEUX

[FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop]

First thread

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/amiibeingunreasonable/4332702-to-not-want-an-awake-child-around-at-11pm-when-i-m-on-holiday

@SpicyJalfrezi I think Alyssa has generally just come to represent a very generic "kid we all know". I'm not seeing it as an attack on one specific child (not cool) potentially just a lot of people identifying with knowing a child/parent like that and having a vent?

Like on the parking thread with the Ford Ranger: everybody knew a guy like him.

And wine, obviously.

@Yesitsbess

Holy cow *@PyongyangKipperbang* I'm not sure I have enough thimbles!

Off to search the sewing biscuit tin.

Well you dont need to worry about the downing a bottle in one do you? Straight to bed and straight to sleep is never going to happen!

@PyongyangKipperbang guess who’s not getting up with the kids in the morning points to self

[quote PartyPotato]**@PyongyangKipperbang* guess who’s not getting up with the kids in the morning points to self*[/quote]
Me neither, they are at Ex's this weekend!

Well, I’m all for wine but I think it is an attack on a particular child, to be honest.

I’m not unsympathetic to the OP, but I do think this is a risk you take when you go on holiday with other people’s families. It can’t be all about you and what you want.

And more generally the self congratulating ‘I did THIS and I was SUPER STRICT and so my kids don’t DARE misbehave’ - well, I’ll go against the majority view again (why not) I don’t think that’s a good thing. In my experience with children, they are almost always a PITA for their own parents, which is good and healthy.

There is a spectrum and maybe the OPs friend is at one extreme but the other extreme of stifling, barking orders, bed NOW, do-as-you’re-told, I think is just as unhealthy and damaging.

@SpicyJalfrezi

It’s been ripping apart ‘gentle’ parents, a book many people have found extremely helpful and doomed an eight year old to a life where everyone dislikes her.

But we don't 'actually' know her. Alyssa is a theoretical child symbolic for all the children that are spoiled and annoying through actually no fault of their own but through 'parenting' or lack of it that has created a monster.

That's fair enough and I see where you're coming from.

Cheers!

@SpicyJalfrezi

It’s been ripping apart ‘gentle’ parents, a book many people have found extremely helpful and doomed an eight year old to a life where everyone dislikes her.

The book is rubbish.

I dont agree that it is an attack on ANY child but an attack on lazy parents.

I and others have posted about how children like that we knew as youngters have turned into demanding unpopular and very unhappy adults. Its a really damaging way to treat a child. You take the path of least resistance when they are little and then as adults they have no way of negotiating relationships with anyone, work, friends, family etc because they have never been taught how to consider anyone else but themselves.

Being a parent is taking the path of most resistance usually, remember the phrase "I am doing this for your own good". No parents wants their kids to hate them for taking away the XBox or grounding them or whatever but we do it because we know that its in their own interest to learn these lessons early. Its horrible when your child doesnt want to speak to you or hates you because you disciplined them but ultimately it really is for their own good. 3breakfasts is doing what is easier for her right now and letting the consequences for that happen to Alyssa, which is an awful thing to do to a child she claims to love.

[quote PartyPotato]@Yourstupidityexhaustsme yeah that was one of the ones I saw. Like no one has ever drank a bottle of wine to themselves over an evening without being an alcoholic.[/quote]
But a bottle of wine for just one person is potentially binge drinking and I’d be very worried if a friend was regularly doing that.

Having an alcoholic parent sometimes makes you far more aware of how other people minimise their alcohol intake because they think they can handle it. 🤷🏻‍♀️

It's the people saying OP is mean being the 'cool mums'...Look at us, nothing gets us down, nothing disappoints us, we can holiday with a friend who is not present at all and it's fine, we can hang out with the kids 24/7 as we are cool and loving without fail.

Again, no one has said that. What people choose to infer is a different matter.

Regardless of what someone’s parenting strategies are, a drinking game being established about expectations for this evening is incredibly off. This isn’t a parking thread- it’s about a mother and her EIGHT YEAR OLD child

If OP has a shred of decency, she won’t update. It’s likely word has got back to her friend anyway.

Some parents do do that, but let’s not kid ourselves that the other extreme of parenting - go to bed now, do as you are told, because I said so - is morally superior.

Both are doing what’s easy. And I think both are damaging, but on balance I actually think the latter approach more so in the long term.

@SausageRollFan

Posts saying my child has asd and doesn't do this/get away with this, awesome, have a medal. Maybe if the mum here was aware her child might have something deeper going on, she would be able to find which techniques to best employ to support her child so hers behaved better too? None of you were using now and next or 'pandering' to your children taking as much as they need from home in order to reduce their anxiety and resulting behaviours before you were actually aware there was something more going on were you.

I have two asd children who go to bed and stay there and one who doesn't. They are separate people with different difficulties, needs and anxieties, not one homogeneous asd being who all react the same way to whatever technique/boundary we try

Yes actually I was doing those things, because she was diagnosed at 3 (she's now 5) and it was very clear from early on that there was something 'not right' with her. She was never like other children, from birth really, her 'needs' were always more. So I adjusted my parenting to allow for it and help her - and I dealt with my fair share of people being critical of me for that. I didn't know that was what I was doing consciously, no, but I did it all the same. Responsive parenting I guess which is sensible whether your child is NT or not. You can only parent the child you have, not the one in 'the books'.

But not 'gentle', not lacking in boundaries and not pandering either! Yes you may have a child with ASD who is more challenging at bedtime, I know of so many parents who have nightmares with sleep. But still, if that was the case, you'd at least warn your friend who you were holidaying with - you wouldn't promise adults only fun evenings knowing your child wasn't capable of achieving that. It so would be madness.

Even with mine being a good sleeper I wouldn't go away with another family without discussion around the fact that my child may react differently to others/need more time to process things/ need me in a different way to how their child needs them. It's common courtesy.

Anyway 'Alyssa' doesn't have SEN so this discussion is rather pointless anyway. She's an indulged child who is playing her mother like a bloody fiddle.

Oh, and mines a Sauv. Cheers 🥂

Can we keep this thread from turning into a bunfight?

Because so far it's been a nice thread.

Op hasn't come back which is saaad!

@SpicyJalfrezi

Some parents do do that, but let’s not kid ourselves that the other extreme of parenting - go to bed now, do as you are told, because I said so - is morally superior.

Both are doing what’s easy. And I think both are damaging, but on balance I actually think the latter approach more so in the long term.

Im not suggesting it is superior, merely commenting on your post that this thread is having a pop at an 8 year old child when it is clear that the childs poor behaviour is not her own fault but her mothers.

I thought most of this thread had been discussing parenting and school discipline methods not ripping into anyone.

It is. Not sure why some people are struggling to see that? It's also not ripping gentle parenting apart. Some posters have confirmed that gentle parenting does not mean no boundaries and teaching kids that no-one else's needs matter. If you follow gentle parenting principles, it does not mean that you have to create an Alyssa. This thread is not a critique of the child, it is a vent about the adult who is not able to parent in a way which respects other people.

Well I've just read thread 1 from the OP.

I've also been on holiday with a friend who an ineffectual parent.

Unfortunately I was an ineffectual person in speaking up for me and ds so I seethed quietly but never did it again.

However she did actually admit her children were being complete arseholes (kind of!) but somehow tried to make out it was because my ds was really well behaved and they felt uncomfortable around him.

And I can assure you my ds is no angel

Shamelessly place marking having read the whole thread.
I'm glad you have wine op!

Disagreeing with the consensus isn’t a bunfight. It is in AIBU, and while I hate the view that posting in AIBU invites shitty responses, I don’t think mine is.

I might be a lone voice on here, but I am a polite lone voice!

@SpicyJalfrezi

Disagreeing with the consensus isn’t a bunfight. It is in AIBU, and while I hate the view that posting in AIBU invites shitty responses, I don’t think mine is.

I might be a lone voice on here, but I am a polite lone voice!

You are. And it's ok to disagree... we're all grown ups!

@MrsScrubbithatescleaning I totally appreciate that. But people on that other thread were literally like ‘you drank a bottle of wine? You’re an alcoholic and you need help’. It’s absurd. You actually don’t need to drink that much to be in ‘binge drinking’ territory according to the CMO guidance.
I’m not saying it’s ok to drink vast quantities of alcohol every single night. But it’s completely unrealistic to think that someone drinking a bottle of wine to themselves, over the whole evening, has a problem with alcohol. If everyone who binge drinks occasionally, aka has more than 2 drinks in one sitting, is an alcoholic, then Jesus Christ count me and nearly everyone I know in.
It was a very unrealistic and judgemental view, that’s all.

This thread is amazing OP, I'm enjoying it whilst drinking some wine.

Fond memories of a family holiday when my dad lost his shit because my auntie refused to put her 3 year old to bed until she was tired as it would mess up her natural sleeping pattern which was child cruelty in her book.

My dad was far less restrained that you OP 😂

oh my god OP you have the patience of a saint!!

I would have had to say something earlier though, but I am also a fan of having my evenings children free by 8/8.30pm!

best of luck for tonight! I would absolutely not go again with them next year! another year will be even worse

I’m not intending to be a pain in the arse here, I promise, but I can’t not comment.

How can anyone think that’s good, that’s something to be applauded?

Bar obvious cases of abuse or neglect where we should all get involved, people will parent differently to us.

No one, especially not a grown man to a woman and three year old, should be ‘losing their shit.’