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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not want an awake child around at 11pm when I'm on holiday PART DEUX

999 replies

FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop · 28/08/2021 00:41

First thread

http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/amiibeingunreasonable/4332702-to-not-want-an-awake-child-around-at-11pm-when-i-m-on-holiday

OP posts:
TheStoic · 28/08/2021 12:44

What else do we 'use' friends for confusedgrin are when we become mothers are we only mum and not entitled to our own company.

That doesn’t make a lot of sense, but most people don’t ‘use’ their friends. They like them for who they are. Do you genuinely think using people is what friendship is for?

theluckiest · 28/08/2021 12:44

Have just spent the good part of an hour reading this thread...

OP, I feel your pain. You have been more than restrained!!

Can't bear wet parenting. I watched, agog, a family of 4 on a train once. One child was a baby but the other spent 5 hours utterly trashing the table, seats, pulling his mum's hair & laughing. The 'gentle' dad just kept rewarding the poor behaviour with treats!!! For example, kid dumped his crisps in the aisle and ground them into the carpet. 'Oh I can see you don't want the crisps darling. Would you like some cake instead?' The mother just looked adoringly at the child while he kicked seats, shouted, etc.

I was Shock

And I'm a teacher too. Some of what's been said about rewarding bad behaviour with treats resonates. Paul Dix has a lot to answer for...

AllCatsAreSpecial · 28/08/2021 12:46

That made me think, actually - there is a very popular “behaviour expert” on instagram (and I like some of her ideas) who says you should never tell a child off while teaching in front of the class. Fair enough, I thought - she must have a great tip for what to do instead!

Her alternative was to wait until you’re finished teaching and then go and kneel down by the child who’s been calling out/being disruptive and be very smiley while reminding them that you really care about them and know they can make the right choice. Great for some kids. The comments were full of (mostly new) teachers asking “well what do I do to stop them actually disrupting my lesson in the moment?”

Beyond “praise children who are doing the right thing”, she didn’t really have an answer. The thing with behaviour management is it’s so dependent on the child so I am sure that this would work with many kids but honestly, she should try teaching while a bunch of 10 year old wannabe roadmen are living it up during your input.

Sometimes “softly-softly-I-care-so-much-about-you-let’s-work-together” is not helping the child.

Shallwegoforawalk · 28/08/2021 12:46

Fuck that. Every night is wine night

We need t-shirts with this on. And cushions. And wooden signs with artisan rope. It's the new Live Love Laugh. Grin

ScienceSensibility · 28/08/2021 12:47

OP it is an absolute breath of fresh air to read about your parenting approach. Thank heavens you are a teacher, I hope there are lots more like you.

Mine are older now but I have watched with horror the growth of ‘gentle parenting’ or whatever the label is.

It is simply carte blanche for lazy ass people who care not that their offspring are indulged, spoilt, and horrendous to be around.

You have coped remarkably well with the holiday situation and you’ve done a great job of hiding what must be a terrific disappointment with humour - I’m glad you have this thread as an outlet.

Your friend is a total wuss. Her children will not respect her in the slightest. She’s been lucky to have your friendship up to now, what a pity she hasn’t taken the opportunity to learn about good parenting.

More power to your elbow, and all the parents on this thread who know that loving your children doesn’t mean trying to be their best friend.

AllCatsAreSpecial · 28/08/2021 12:48

@theluckiest fucking Paul dix! I was on placement at a (shite) school where the head had desperately imposed his method on all the teachers. Result: disruptive kids getting all the attention and positive reinforcement.

AllCatsAreSpecial · 28/08/2021 12:48

@theluckiest fucking Paul dix! I was on placement at a (shite) school where the head had desperately imposed his method on all the teachers. Result: disruptive kids getting all the attention and positive reinforcement.

roarfeckingroarr · 28/08/2021 12:49

I worked in a primary school nurture team years ago and had to leave because of the sort of rules a PP described. 10 year olds who knew the system and knew their rights would be absolute horrors, disrupt the class, swear and spit at me and teacher, then be invited for a cosy chat to talk about their feelings and asked whether they might like to draw a picture. It was doing more damage.

roarfeckingroarr · 28/08/2021 12:50

It was a "rights respecting school". No rules, just requests that they respect each others' rights to learn/play/be safe. 5 year olds don't get this shit.

CMA56 · 28/08/2021 12:51

FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop

Wonderful thread! Looked up to train in greek - na ekpaidéfso.

Hope your last evening pans out Flowers

YouMeandtheSpew · 28/08/2021 12:52

I really empathise with you because it sounds like it’s really ruined your holiday, but from what you’ve described the kid sounds like she has some pretty major self-esteem/insecurity issues. Which could also explain the sleep problems.

Justmuddlingalong · 28/08/2021 12:53

I am related to an "Alyssa", who's parents use a gentle, non confrontational, come to think of it, non existent style of parenting. When I tell their child off or to put a sock in it, the parents always thank me and are grateful that I'm dealing with the child's often horrendous behaviour. It's not so much gentle parenting, more like pass the buck parenting. The irony of it all is that the child listens and reacts well when they know that boundaries are set and stuck to.

CreamCabbages · 28/08/2021 12:54

  • Congressdingo

She is clearly not as resilient and self assured as you are. You actually come across as smug, judgemental and lacking in empathy

Or in other words beeeeeee kiiiiinnnndd.*

HmmNo one needs to be kind.

I do reckon that to ridicule a mother and her 8 year old daughter on a public parenting forum is pretty nasty though.

@Rosscameasdoody- Op made the choice to holiday with another family.

Very few people do like prolonged periods with other people’s children, but to make fun of them is unnecessary.

BluebellsGreenbells · 28/08/2021 12:55

Can anyone recommend a good book please? I have a 2.8yr old and twin 1.8yr olds. Thank you

Firstly you don’t have time to read a book, secondly you don’t have time to gently parent, they do as they’re told because they have to!

When mine were little I was told I was ‘harsh’ using my mummy voice, and yet praised for how well behaved the kids were.

You can’t have one without the other.

Absolutely loved this thread, I wished you’d taught my kids! They thrive on knowing where they stand in a classroom and I would’ve backed you all the way!!

Rosscameasdoody · 28/08/2021 12:55

@TheStoic

What else do we 'use' friends for confusedgrin are when we become mothers are we only mum and not entitled to our own company.

That doesn’t make a lot of sense, but most people don’t ‘use’ their friends. They like them for who they are. Do you genuinely think using people is what friendship is for?

It makes perfect sense to me - tongue in cheek. Of course the OP wasn’t ‘using’ her friend - if I remember the original post on the first thread, they don’t live near to one another, so how was the OP to know her friends’ parenting style would be so different to her own - and, frankly, so infuriating. What the OP is saying is that while they are mums, they are also adults and she was expecting some time with her friend as an adult - instead her holiday was ruined by a self centred brat who the friend was either unable or unwilling to discipline. She recognised that the holiday was not the time to confront the issue, so instead of causing an unpleasant atmosphere, she vented on MN. What’s wrong with that ?
amillionmenonmars · 28/08/2021 12:56

@PlasticOrchid I have been teaching for just over 30 years. I have also done all of the ACEs training. I have never seen such a decline in behaviour since we introduced assertive discipline and restorative systems into school. The old system wasn't perfect - but it worked far better. New HT had to be seen to be doing something new - so we got this.

Whilst none of us can ever claim to know everything about what the kids in front of us have been through or are going through in their lives I do think I know enough about students to recognise a chancer who is playing the system when I meet one.

I would not allow a child to be kicked by another. It is common sense to move move them to my desk to work. Gets to be a challenge when you have half a dozen or more in the class who are disrupting the learning for everyone else - you eventually run out pf places to move them to. And who want to be the lovely, well behaved child who continually has to put up with having one of these kids moved next to them?

BigButtons · 28/08/2021 12:59

@roarfeckingroarr

It was a "rights respecting school". No rules, just requests that they respect each others' rights to learn/play/be safe. 5 year olds don't get this shit.
My school is a rights respecting school. Although less lenient than it was and behaviour has improved with the new head. Nonetheless it’s far too lenient and the real trouble makers tend to be given a huge amount of Lea way. Makes my blood boil. Many kids really don’t get told a flat ‘no’ at home or certainly not a no that actually means no. Many are very shocked when they are told they can’t behave the way they want to or have what they want.
beastlyslumber · 28/08/2021 12:59

This thread has been highly entertaining. I will wait pathetically avidly for updates.

OP, I do not know how you have the patience! I'm impressed.

CoronaPeroni · 28/08/2021 13:00

After my previous post about our soft behaviour policy in school, I have just googled it and to my horror it is a county-wide programme! And not just my county. Norfolk, Cambridgeshire, Hertfordshire, Dorset to name but a few, have all had the 'de-escalation experts' in and are endorsing it as the best thing since sliced bread! It is called STEPS. STEP up, STEP down, many variations - beware! Remember the name, it's coming to a school near YOU!

Maddison12 · 28/08/2021 13:01

Christ OP you're getting quite a hard time here, don't really understand why, you sound great.

If my friend's 5yo was going on like that over a plate I'd have no problem saying "no stop it, that's not nice talking to mummy like that." Hardly a telling off is it? Hmm

Alyssa and her mum sound like a monumental pain in the arse, I think you've done well to make it to the end without packing up and fucking off home!

GrandmasCat · 28/08/2021 13:02

This remind me of some former good friends visiting from abroad, we were so looking forward to see them and have a catch up after not having a holiday with them since their child was born. So we booked time off and had lot of plans on what to do together….

… just to realise that they were still putting their 11 year old to bed by reading her stories, and wouldn’t contemplate leaving her alone in the room until she was fully asleep, which didn’t happen until after midnight.

Every day was playing Simon says, whatever the girl wanted todo, we had to do for the day, the only day we managed to go out for dinner and have a short conversation, the girl complained loudly to her mum that “nobody was including her” after a full week of us trying to talk to her with the girl not even making an effort to reply.

The best part was when I rang them to ask at what time their train was arriving after they had a day out on their own when the girl asked to see London, and they were expecting us to pick up from the station. It was almost midnight but the dad replied he couldn’t tell us as the girl was sleeping over the bag with the details and they didn’t want to wake her up until the train got to us.

Never again.

And these were the friends who were never going to have children

FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop · 28/08/2021 13:03

@jakeyboy1

How have I only just found this thread - it will go down in MN history!

OP are the days any better at all or equally as bad as the nights? Do you think she has any realisation whatsoever?!

We went on holiday once with friends who have to stay in the room until the kids sleep- so basically the kids don't sleep. Cue us waiting downstairs until gone 9.30pm bloody starving for our tea. One night it got so bad we ordered takeaway and had eaten it all by the time they got downstairs.

Daytime is fine, there's four kids so voices get drowned out and they get on brilliantly, go off and play and we get to sit (until the next "muuuuuuum")
OP posts:
whynotwhatknot · 28/08/2021 13:04

I do love your wit op-its entertaining to read must be a nightmare for you though

Bet youre so looking forward to going home

SausageRollFan · 28/08/2021 13:07

@SausageRollFan. Why does all bad behaviour need to be classified as a condition ? Not questioning your own child, but from what the OP has described, A is behaving like this because she CAN - friend clearly has no idea how to set boundaries and stick to them.

It doesn't, but the very fact that it's decided from what OP has said it must be bad behaviour is exactly what I'm talking about . No one here is qualified or in a position to know and decide that. Nor am I in a position to say the child does have any difficulties, but it's certainly better to be open minded and support, because where does judgment get anyone?

Except I've seen my friend's parenting IS a direct factor in her DD's inability to sleep. Why go to sleep when you can stay up and play instead?

And? Lots of people saw our parenting and decided the same. Guess what, they were wrong. If it's her parenting, why doesn't her other child behave in the same way?

Because classifying it as a condition absolves those in charge from any responsibility.

Not at all. But standard parenting techniques don't always work with neurodiverse kids. People see you not doing xyz and this decide makes you a shit parent, when doing that would only escalate the situation rather than give any effectual remedy and certainly wouldn't 'teach' the child anything useful

*I have friends with children with ‘conditions’ they KNOW that to help their kids learn, they have to set boundaries and mean them, they have to be clear and consistent and they have to be firm when it’s needed.

Even if things did go tits up for whatever reason, they’re skilled at managing the situation for the benefit of the child*

I totally agree, and as said above it's not an excuse, but boundaries often look different and so do the parenting techniques for dealing with whatever is going on. Sounds like this mum hasn't got the skills to manage her child's behaviour, but that does make her a terrible parent, it's not something we all instantly know, we learn as we go along and if you have a child with difficulties peoples insistence you parent them in a certain way actually only delays how long it takes you to sus out the best way to parent them, as they feel pressured to do so in a certain way which often just doesn't work.

And whoever else mentioned there are no boundaries around sleep (sorry can't find it now), there are boundaries, the child goes to bed with her mum and goes to sleep, that's the boundary. She's not up running around all night. The boundary is different to the norm though so therefore it's criticised. You can't expect someone to suddenly parent their child differently for a week because you don't like how they do it it. If that's what works best for the parent and mum into one else's business, no one forced OP to go on holiday amd she admits herself she knew what the child's behaviour was like so why would you expect it to suddenly change on holiday?

As a side note, as adults we're told if we can't sleep, to get up and do stuff and go back to bed when tired, yet kids are expected to suck it up and are often held to higher standards than adults are. It's quite bizarre really. Same could be said for op whinging about child's awful behaviour when she's on mums net bitching about her friend behind her back. Child should be kind and polite at all times, yet it's acceptable for adults not to be Hmm

DollyPartBaked · 28/08/2021 13:10

I think the ADHD/ASD thing is a red herring (mentioned by a PP). You can still actually parent a child with ASD.

My SIL's has a couple of kids with ASD and they are crap at going to bed and will be annoying in the evening BUT she and my DB still don't allow them to stay up with us on holiday etc. They might interrupt a couple of times but her children know if they can't sleep they still have to stay in their room / read etc. Despite having real difficulties they aren't totally indulged.

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